Episode Transcript
[00:00:00] Speaker A: Welcome to the Underrepresented in Tech podcast, where we talk about issues in underrepresentation and have difficult conversations.
Underrepresented in Tech is a free database with a goal of helping people find new opportunities in WordPress and tech.
Hello, Samah.
[00:00:18] Speaker B: Hello, Michelle.
[00:00:20] Speaker A: We dressed in the same color again.
[00:00:23] Speaker B: Again, it's a great mind. Things alike. Like how they say it. Yeah, yeah, yeah, exactly.
[00:00:28] Speaker A: That's exactly how they say it. Because we don't call each other and say, " What color are you going to wear today?
[00:00:33] Speaker B: My normal glasses, like, and not my reading ones, are the same kind of color as yours. So we are copy paste.
[00:00:42] Speaker A: These are my computer glasses. So funny. That's too funny. And for anybody who's listening, we are both wearing some color of maroon.
[00:00:51] Speaker B: I would say Burgundy.
[00:00:53] Speaker A: Maroon. Yeah, burgundy. Oh, burgundy sounds better because it reminds me of wine. So we'll say we're in Burgundy.
[00:00:58] Speaker B: Yeah, we need it.
[00:01:00] Speaker A: I love it. I love it.
[00:01:01] Speaker B: This is coffee, by the way, to let everyone know.
[00:01:04] Speaker A: Oh, yes, I finished my coffee a little while ago. I made a triple espresso latte, and I'm already shaking a little bit, so I'm raring to go.
I wanted to talk this week about when accessible things are rendered inaccessible after they've already been created. So there's. I have two. Well, two.
I have. I have at least two, sometimes three. Let's just say I have some examples, personal examples.
The first I will talk about is about a year and a half ago, I went to a.
To.
To listen to my daughter's DJ. So it was at a music venue where people are dancing, all this stuff.
And it was in this. This venue was in a plaza, like a strip mall kind of thing. And so all of the doors opened up into the outside, so to speak. So I didn't go. Didn't go inside until you actually went into their business.
And there was a curb cut right there in front of their business. Like just one, like 10ft, 10ft down the thing. And then there wasn't another one for about, I don't know, at least 50ft, if not more, down, further down this plaza. And it was raining.
Well, I'm guessing that it was to stop skateboarders because there was a decline, you know, an inclined decline there. And so I'm guessing skateboarders would go up that and then skate down the sidewalk. So what they did was they put this giant cement pylon right in the middle of the curb cut to stop. I'm assuming to stop skateboarders. What it did was stop me because I couldn't use the curb cut for my. With my scooter to be able to get in, I had to go all the way down to the other end of the plaza, use that curb cut, and come all the way back up. And it was raining, and it was cold. It was winter, and I was soaked by the time I got in. And I was not a happy camper. And that's because somebody said it's accessible. So we've met the. The letter of the law. And then somebody, and then probably the owners, a couple of years later, said, we're getting too many kids. Let's block that accessible route and make people go all the way to the other end of the plaza. So that's kind of what I mean by making accessible inaccessible. Sometimes it's somewhat permanent like that, and then sometimes it's just that people aren't thinking. So, I mean, I like Amazon, and I like to order things online. I love shopping. Retail therapy is one of my favorite ways to get out of a funk. Especially if it includes Legos. Right. But. Or Lego.
But here's the thing. So I have a little ramp to the front door of my house.
It's there from when my mother was only in a wheelchair. I use a cane around my house.
I don't use wheels in my house. Every once in a while, I have brought my scooter in to plug it in and charge it. But since then, Nick has got a station set up for me in the garage so I don't have to bring the scooter in anymore, which is nice because it leaves marks all over the floor.
I have this little ramp outside my front door, and I have a storm door that opens out and then the front door opens in. Right.
Whenever anybody delivers anything to me, they put it on the ramp.
[00:04:22] Speaker B: If you open.
[00:04:24] Speaker A: I can't open the door.
[00:04:25] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:04:25] Speaker A: And if I open the door, I'm moving the things away from me where I can access them easily without going up and down the ramp with my cane, which I can do. But then I have to bend over to pick up pack. It's.
[00:04:36] Speaker B: It's.
[00:04:38] Speaker A: It's a little scary. So I always wait for somebody else, either my neighbors to come home, and I'll text them and say, could you bring that in? Or now that Nick's here, you know, he'll bring packages in all the time when I. When I've ordered them. But I shouldn't have to. There's plenty of space next to the ramp that they could put packages that don't block the Door. So why are they blocking an accessible entrance? Does not make sense to me at all.
And then there are situations where. And this is sometimes outside of control, of course, when an elevator breaks or, you know.
Yeah, elevators for the most part, or some kind of lift.
And I. It's frustrating for sure. We all understand that things break. It's when companies don't go back and fix them quickly. So no matter what you do, you still don't have access. And this has happened to me.
Where did this, this happen?
This happened in Green. Yeah. In Athens. The elevator to the stage area. I. There, there were only two places that I could go, wheelchair-bound, in the auditorium for the closing remarks. I could go down, take a little lift with my scooter all the way down, and then go off the lift. The problem was that the lift was too small for my scooter, and it was too small for their own wheelchair. So even if they had put me in a wheelchair, I still couldn't use that lift. So it was too small for a scooter, too small for a wheelchair. What was it for? I don't know. Or I could go all the way up to the very, very top of the back in an elevator, which is what I ended up doing, which was fine. So I mean it's just one of those things where it's like it just where everything works except some of some things.
There was a year, I don't remember which camp it was, everybody's booths were up on platforms. And it wasn't until day two that the little ramps arrived, so that like I could go into a booth instead of having to like stand outside and wave to people inside the booth, kind of thing. So it just seems to me that there's, there's better opportunities for us not only to create accessible situations and accessible paths for people in wheelchairs, but also to ensure that they stay accessible because it's really disheartening when you can't access something and you are left out because there's no way for you to get there.
[00:07:04] Speaker B: Yeah.
You know, most of a lot of people think that accessibility is often like thought that's something that only relates to small group. But also it is. I, I know it's not that that a case. It's making sure to take care of everyone, making everyone feel included.
I agree with you. Like I think a lot of Word camps or a lot of events, they don't really think about how things accessible for everyone. I know sometimes also in Word camps, future Word camps, I'M not gonna say there is a lot of like floors understand with the venue situation, this is the best option they can find. But also to make sure there is elevator to make sure there is a volunteer if somebody have a question or to make a clear signs for people who need they have physical disabilities and they cannot walk all over the floors or they cannot use the escalator or to make sure that there is specific elevator people with accessibility they they can use and they don't have to wait for a long time or they don't have to ask and going around.
I agree with you. And a lot of because most of the people now understand things, maybe because of the act of the accessibility of websites. Because I you know me, I was doing research for five minutes, and while we're talking before we started recording, there's 96% of websites have accessibility issues.
According to reports called W Whip AIM study like they made it because most of the time, now everybody is talking about accessibility with the website, and in the past, like the physical accessibility was important, and now the accessibility on the website. But still, the number is really scary. Like it is 96%, and also it can really damage your visibility on ChatGPT or in Google because 70%, 71% of users with disabilities will leave the website if it's not accessible. And of course, we can ask people to do a small exercise, like we can ask people, like hey, if you want to know how it makes you feel, watch a movie, turn the subtitles. Is it relaxing for you? Is it distracting? Is it the right color? And also, if you're like with accessibility, make the colors different because also a lot of accessibility range of how you're seeing the font, seeing the colors, the physical accessibility, and I understand and I remember you, and I told me a couple of stories. I found that really horrible. While you're traveling on airlines, you have endless and very exhausting discussions about your battery. Yeah, the scripture battery. Because, like for me, just mentioning it on the website doesn't take a lot of work, because I'm pretty sure you're not the first one.
Yeah, exactly. Because I don't mean it badly. You're not traveling to the southern countries. You're going from Europe to the States. We know which that's if. If you tell me that I'm going to Somalia or Yemen. I know you're not, but I understand maybe maybe they're like, oh a scooter with a battery. Because most of the people Use yeah chairs there, we don't they roads and a lot. Yeah, yeah, no, but we need a lot to. To do, but also that's.
I wish the events all the time. Some events I will give them Kodos, like the Brighton SEO. I'm sorry I'm not doing a brand for them or anything, but they always make sure their accessibility and their planning, and also some of our beloved WordPress community. Some events they take. They take it very seriously. Yeah yeah.
[00:11:06] Speaker A: I wasn't able to go to WordCamp Asia this year; you were there. How would you rate the accessibility there?
You don't want to say. It must be. It wasn't very good.
[00:11:18] Speaker B: I think that is the whole event. WordCamp Asia was amazing. I love the vibes, the food. The community itself was amazing. Of course, I have other things I complained about because getting the visa was so difficult, and also, there were options for filling out the visa; you have to add your religion. But I understand some people maybe they don't have. There are a lot of things before Word Camp Asia happens. I think the accessibility could be better. I love that the organizer, when I point something out to them, they take it very seriously, and they said immediately, " We'll think about it.
And I said it out loud. If Michelle were here, she would not be happy. There was. There are no ramps for the booth.
Some two booths have them, but all of the rest. Because I thought from the drawing that the floor is flat.
[00:12:09] Speaker A: Yes.
[00:12:09] Speaker B: There's no high platform for it.
We asked you, of course, to solve it with something, but I was worried and scared that someone would use it to put some edge that is going to be risky for them. And I said, if there's someone coming, then we will make sure to help them.
I think this should be in all the organizers' handbook Accessibility, otherwise with the signs Accessibility so that they know how they can navigate on and going around on the venue. Because also again, we're not talking about flat venues now. Like a lot of the places go up and down, up and down. And that should be really important to make sure that there's a quick road for it or a route. Also, they should also put the signs if because sometimes you can use the escalator faster. But if you need to use the elevator to go to the second floor or go somewhere that will take more time. You know, like, because elevators and escalators are usually a faster way than having to wait. You need to go in to go out.
I think. I think a lot of people should added as a must-do.
[00:13:24] Speaker A: There is a page now, I think maybe more than. There's a section in the WordCamp Handbook about physical accessibility.
Joe Simpson Jr. Put it in there. But that doesn't mean, you know, there's a lot in the handbook. It doesn't mean that everybody pays attention to everything.
In past years, they've contacted me to find out how high is too high for a. For a countertop or, you know, they. Or how wide does a. Does a row need to be to accommodate wheelchairs and things like that, which even if something is googleable, I don't mind if they ask me because I know that they're paying attention to it.
This team didn't reach out to me, but I also was not able to go. So I don't know if that had anything to do with it, but.
But yeah, it's. It's. It's very frustrating when you enter a venue, and you find that there are certain parts of it you're just not able to go to. Now, that's not to say that I expect every building, especially very old buildings in every city, to be able to accommodate me. Would it be nice? Absolutely. But there are often stairs into pubs and things. But old cities were built before accessibility was a thing, right? And so sometimes there are two or three steps, and I can't take a scooter up two or three steps. And if it's a good day for me physically, I could probably use my cane, park my scooter outside, take the key, and hope it doesn't get stolen while I go inside someplace, up a step or two, and then find a place to sit down. But sometimes even two steps is more than I can do because of the issues that I deal with. And even losing weight, right? So, like, I'm down almost 65 pounds now. But even losing weight isn't making that part easier because in. In some ways, the damage is already done. Like, I already have arthritis in my knees, right? So it's not. It's going to make a lighter weight on my knees, but it's not going to get rid of the arthritis in my knees. So being able to stand for long periods or to walk very far is definitely something that I still struggle with. And I will leave my scooter for probably a year or two more if I'm able to recover enough and maybe have knee replacement or something like that, to be able to not have to use it. But in my future, that scooter is still part of it. And so being able to access spaces is very important to me.
I may be able to find workarounds sometimes, but I also worry about people with softer voices than mine.
[00:15:45] Speaker B: Right.
[00:15:45] Speaker A: Because we have this platform. I have places that I can publish, I can post things, and I have a big following on socials and things like that, and it gets heard. But I worry for other people who don't feel they can speak up in certain situations, and I worry about them. So sometimes I feel like I speak for all of us who have accessibility issues, and realizing I am only speaking for myself. But if I speak for myself, then hopefully and make open paths, I will make open paths for other people as well. That's my.
[00:16:12] Speaker B: There's a nice thing. In one article, they say accessibility is not about making things easier for a few. It's about making sure no one is left out. And in doing that, we actually make things better for everyone. And I agree with you because it's also, when we are talking about it, we're giving feedback for organizers, for people. And if we speak up, it's not like, it's also to share the story because other people, it's okay to speak about it. It's nice to share it so people can learn. Because I think. Let me check quickly. According to the research, 1.3 billion people worldwide live with some form of disability. According to the World Health Organization, the number is, is really visible. It's not like 0.01. It's more like 7 million people. So almost. We're talking 25 or 30% of the population around the world. They, they are living and struggling with physical disability and also giving feedback to make things better for everyone. Everyone is welcome. Everyone feel your right spot, and you don't have to suffer.
[00:17:24] Speaker A: Yeah, and there's, there's temporary disabilities too. Right. So let's say that you sprained your ankle tomorrow and were on crutches. Now you'd be somebody who has a temporary disability.
I'm not, I'm not wishing that on you, by the way, but maybe I
[00:17:38] Speaker B: will relax a little bit. There you go.
[00:17:41] Speaker A: I'm sorry, I'll be convalescing on the beach.
But there's temporary temporary disabilities. There are people who have, you know, eye surgeries, and it takes a couple of weeks for their eyes to get back to normal. There are people who suffer from hearing loss from an explosion or other things, and it comes back. And again, you know, people break limbs and those kinds of things. So there are temporary disabilities. There are also.
We don't tend to call this A disability. But when you are raising a small child who doesn't walk yet, you are encumbered by the fact that the child is either in your arms or in a stroller that you're pushing. And entrances and elevators and curb cuts and all of those things help that population as well. And an aging population that just moves more slowly and can't. Perhaps they're still walking, but steps are more difficult. So that curb cut comes in handy. And holding doors open longer. So pushing those paddles so that you don't get stuck, those are important things to be able to accommodate all of our society. 100.
[00:18:44] Speaker B: Yeah, I agree with you. And for me, like, I have an issue with my. I have glaucoma. Yes, I did surgery, but too much light irritates me. And even sometimes when you open websites, you feel it like a flashlight.
And I always say to people, if there's a little bit of sun, I wear my glasses. I'm not a diva. I just like, literally, it's to go blind. But yeah. And. And also, sometimes, people also ask you questions like, I cannot open my left arm. I broke it when I was eight years old. I cannot open it fully. It's when I left things. I always depend on my right hand. So that's why my shoulder, like, really hurts me. And so sometimes when you try to reach something, somebody tell you, like, stretch your arm. Stretch it. You can do it. I cannot open my car.
[00:19:31] Speaker A: That's as far as it goes.
[00:19:33] Speaker B: And I am a tiny person. Like, I don't know how much in feet. 157 centimeters. If I reach, you know, the cabin on the airplane, and I have to go to the chair.
So sometimes, also like people also look at you like, " Why is she on the chair. And once my lady told me, like, you can put it up. No lady, I'm. I am a short person. I cannot open my arm, so I need to use my right side for the button. And it's also quite a way for me. So yeah, it's also to. To make life easy. I remember once we.
We had a guest. Remember we. One of the. They were sharing their app about accessibility initiatives. And I think a lot of organizers or even events, whatever, and people traveling, they should use that app more.
[00:20:24] Speaker A: Absolutely.
[00:20:25] Speaker B: Make it live and available.
[00:20:27] Speaker A: I've got the app on my phone. Yeah.
[00:20:29] Speaker B: In the Netherlands, we have an easy life. I can tell you, like the other day, you don't notice it sometimes, but you notice it when you travel and when you come back, like in the train, there's the Train is like accessible. Some trains have this chair. With steps, but a lot of trains are flat. So if you have a wheelchair or you have a baby, I don't know what they call it.
They don't have babies.
[00:20:56] Speaker A: We call it a stroller here in the UK; they call it a pram.
[00:20:59] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah, Stroller, then it's flat. Even all of the buses, if someone is in a wheelchair or with a stroller, then you don't go from the front door because of the bus, because it's narrow. You go in the way and exit because it's big. And also they. Even if it's a little bit far away from the sidewalk, there's something that will stretch to make sure that if you go on it, it's really perfect.
Looking around, sometimes it's. It's like. I don't mean to talk about India itself, but a lot of places, Congo, when I travel, or Tanzania, or even the Middle East, we don't have that, which is sometimes you.
I take it for granted, but I'm pretty sure if.
If. How can I say if you travel abroad and you? This one, it's. It's not gonna make your day easy or your travel easy, and may. Will make it difficult. Then you say, " Okay, I don't need to go. Next time, let me stay away. Yeah, yeah.
[00:21:54] Speaker A: The last thing I want to say on it is that there are some places that are considered grandfathered in. So they existed before the laws. And I don't even want to get into the how. The term grandfathered in is a racist term here in the United States. We can talk about that another time, maybe when we do. When in June, when we talk about Juneteenth and things like that over here. But anyway, when you have. When a company is grandfathered in, it means they're allowed to not be accessible for something or they're allowed to not have to do whatever it is, according to that specific law. If your company is grandfathered into inaccessibility, still take that as an opportunity to make things better and make things more accessible for everybody. Just because you can stay inaccessible doesn't mean you should stay inaccessible. So I wanted to make sure that just because you can doesn't mean you should. So everybody should kind of listen to that a little bit. If you know, even small shops, if they just take the time to put the mechanisms on to paddle open the doors, it's a great help. Like, every dollar tree in. In all of New York is not accessible in that one. In that one area, which means I either have to try to open the door myself or ask somebody else to open it for me if I'm by myself. So wouldn't it be nice if all I had to do was push a button, then the door would open for me? So. So anyway. Okay, so I'm off my soapbox now.
[00:23:20] Speaker B: Let's wish for a more accessible, peaceful, equal, and inclusive world.
[00:23:26] Speaker A: Amen to that, sister. Absolutely.
Sounds good to me. All right, we'll see everybody next week when we don't know what we'll talk about, but hopefully you'll find it just as entertaining as we do.
[00:23:37] Speaker B: Yes.
[00:23:38] Speaker A: Bye.
[00:23:39] Speaker B: Bye.
[00:23:41] Speaker A: If you're interested in using our database, joining us as a guest for an episode, or just want to say Hi, go to underrepresentedintech.com See you next week.
