Episode Transcript
[00:00:00] Speaker A: Welcome to the underrepresented in tech podcast, where we talk about issues of underrepresentation and have difficult conversations. Underrepresented in tech is a free database with the goal of helping people find new opportunities in WordPress and tech.
[00:00:20] Speaker B: Hello, Samah. How are you?
I'm good. Hello, Michelle. How are you?
[00:00:25] Speaker A: I'm good, too.
I did some work this week. Well, last week, I had somebody come in and put down new flooring, some painting, and a new toilet in the main bathroom in my condo. And it's amazing how, as a kid, that would have been like, so what? Like, where's my toy? Right? And I'm so happy I have a new toilet. Like, nothing says you're a miserable grown-up.
[00:00:53] Speaker B: Not at all. Congratulations on it.
[00:00:57] Speaker A: But, like, you know, like, when you were a kid, and you got a new Barbie doll or new, you know, truck or something, you show it to everybody, right? Like, I took pictures of my bathroom. I sent them to my daughter. I sent them to my friends. I sent them to my mother. Like, look, I have a new floor in there. So, sometimes the little things make us so happy in the long run. And they put a cat door. So I think you can almost see. Do you see this hallway over here?
[00:01:22] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:01:22] Speaker A: Yeah, I can see directly across from there is a storage room, and that's where the kitty litter box is. So, for four years, I've had to leave the storage room door open so that the cats can do their business. But the same handyman that put down my floor cut a cat door in there. So now I can actually not have walked by that clutter a million times in a week. And it's just a little cat door. And it looks like the shape of a cat with little ears. And I put a little, I'll put a picture online, but I put a little sign on top that says free catnip inside, hoping they would get used to it. They can't read, but they like it. They use the door. So I'm happy. So sometimes it's nice little things.
[00:02:03] Speaker B: Oh, My happy place is Ikea. So I know what you're talking about. When I do something like a pillow, I take photos and share it with everyone. I know what you look at this exactly.
[00:02:20] Speaker A: Well, it's interesting because. We teased this out last week, but we want to talk about mental health today. And we know we've talked about the Olympics a lot lately and how we can even equate what we do right to the Olympics. I was talking to somebody. Actually, I was on a TikTok live last night, so I've been invited twice to this other person's TikTok live, and they are advocates for students with disabilities. Here in the United States, we have what are called 504 plans and IEP plans, which are to give extra accommodations and to accommodate students with disabilities.
So she's an advocate for that. She has a business. And so we were talking about how the longer it takes to evaluate a student, the further behind you're putting them in their educational journey, and how education is not a sprint. It's a marathon. But it takes somebody longer to get over the finish line of a marathon already when there's somebody who has disabilities. But the longer you take to put those accommodations in place, like extra time on tests or somebody reading the test aloud or being able to use a keyboard instead of writing all of these things that go into different kinds of student disabilities, the longer it is, the further away from that finish line you're keeping them. And so it's amazing how the Olympics can apply to so many different things.
Today, we want to talk about Simone Biles, who made an amazing comeback from having to step away from the Tokyo Olympics because of something called the twisties. We also want to talk about little things like a new bathroom on my floor.
The floor in my bathroom. I reversed that are things that we can take joy in and that when we are dealing with whether you have clinical depression, situational depression, clinical anxiety, situational anxiety, things like that, or it's something that's just. I'm just humdrum and bored and whatever, but it's like little things that can just lift your spirits and make you a little bit happier. And there's nothing wrong with that. So, yes, I will share pictures of my bathroom floor because I love it. I'll send it to you later. If anybody else wants to see them, tell us, and I will post them on social media.
But, yeah, let's get into it. You sent me a message saying that there was a documentary on Netflix about Simone Biles. It was two episodes long, and I watched them last night. And I, you know, I remembered from four years ago when she did the vault and kind of lost her place in the sky, in the air, as she says.
I didn't know you could get lost in the middle of a gymnastics temple because I knew this would surprise everybody. I'm not a gymnast, but it makes sense, right? So, like, when you are, you know, when you watch a ballerina pirouette, or you watch a figure skater do their turns.
[00:05:25] Speaker B: Spinning.
[00:05:25] Speaker A: Yeah, Spinning. Right. So they spot like they turn their head. They turn their head, and they know where they are because they are still perpendicular to the ground. But when they do twists and turns and jumps and all of those things, your orientation to the ground and where you are in time and space can get lost. And I didn't know that. And that makes sense. And how dangerous must that be? And that happens.
So the twisties, the documentary I was watching, I had no idea how much hate and vitriol was sent her way because she stepped back during the Olympics and recognized her own mental health. And the fact that her mental health in the situation that she is in as a gymnast could literally be deadly if she continued to participate in the Olympics at that point in time. Because if you lose your place in time and space while you are in the middle of a vault, you can land very, very dangerously, and you can break bones, but you can also hit your head and cause all kinds of problems that way. You can also injure your spine, which could then lead to paraplegia or quadriplegia. And so, yeah, so I'm glad that we're talking about this, and I'm glad you sent that my way. So I've been talking like I'm gonna. I'm gonna be quiet for a minute and let you chime in.
[00:07:00] Speaker B: No, the same here. When I was reading about it, I didn't know that it was even possible.
Of course, when you think about it, as you said, it's so dangerous for someone who, for her, for someone gymnastic, it's really dangerous. I haven't watched the documentary yet, but I think I read a couple of articles online about it, and I think it's very strong that she should step down. And I know the Olympics happen every four years. And I know there's a peak of your success, and if you missed it, I think twice or three times, people can participate. And gymnastics, they cannot do it for a very long, long time, of course, because the body, the muscles, everything changed. But she has the strength to step down. That's admirable. Also, it's eye-opening that if she also stepped down as gymnastic, as Simone, and took care of herself, that was also a really strong message. I'm really sad. I didn't know that. I didn't watch the documentary. As I said, I'm really sad that she was. Get some lash of hate from haters. You have to find a couple of people. Why did you do it? But I think it's really admirable. And, of course, this is one of a lot of mental health. A lot of women face it every single day.
[00:08:25] Speaker A: Yeah, we talked often, Allie and I. And I think you and I have mentioned before that words matter and how we frame things. Excuse me, I got that morning frog in my throat. How we frame things with words matters, right? So one of the things that was like, when this happened at the Tokyo Olympics. It wasn't people in her immediate world that were attacking with words, right? It was the news outlets.
It was people. Armchair gymnasts, right? Sitting at home using words like quit and quit is so intentional of a word. And it is such a harmful word. Unless we own it ourselves, right? Like, I could say I quit doing something. Like, you could quit smoking. You can quit sugar, you know, you can quit a toxic job. You can. And I have quit a toxic job in the past, and I've used that word, like, I quit this place, right?
Not to them, but about them. But. But when somebody else applies it to you, and that's not how you see the situation, it can be very detrimental.
And how she talked about it, she just had to cocoon herself away from the news and these really harmful people.
When she decided she wasn't quitting gymnastics, she just had to work on her mental health, and she went back to the gym.
People in the gym and other gymnasts were looking at her in a way, like, at least, she felt that she was being scrutinized all the time. And so she took things back to basics. So she started learning to tumble again. And it's not that she didn't know how to do those things, but she had to regain her sense of where she was in space and time, in those kinds of things that she was doing. So she was practicing somersaults. She was back to the basics that we teach children, which four years later allowed her to win gold in the last two weeks more than once. Right?
And so I think there's a lesson, right? So we talk about mental health in gymnasts, and people are like, well, this is underrepresented in tech. How is that applied to tech? But it does, right? Because we all have mental health issues, even if we aren't diagnosed with a mental health disorder. We have every person unless you are absolutely, you know, emotionless. And I would argue there's no such thing as we all have highs and lows. And like I said, whether it's something that's a diagnosis, that's a chronic issue, or if it's situational, you know, like when you lose somebody in your life, like when my dad passed, I went through situational depression because there's this big void in your life when somebody passes away or at the end of a relationship, even if the person's still alive somewhere. Like those kinds of life events that we experience, leaving a job and starting a job all have an emotional impact on us.
And because we work in a remote industry for the most part, like, yes, you're in an office, right? But I'm not in an office. And you don't always work in an office. And so many people in WordPress and tech work from home.
It can feel very isolating. And so we can, if we're not careful, get our own versions of the twisties. In other sports, they call it the yips, which are things that keep us from performing at our peak. And that then will also kind of put you into the spiral of, not only am I having these feelings, but I'm not doing my job well, while I'm not doing my job well, so those feelings get worse, and then I'm not doing my job even worse. And it can get out of hand.
We have had at least one or two people that I'm aware of in WordPress, specifically that we've lost two deaths by suicide because of the emotional turmoil that sometimes comes along with remote work. So, I'm out of the soapbox again today. I'm sorry, I'm drinking my coffee. Give me your thoughts.
[00:12:28] Speaker B: Yeah, me, of course. I believe mental health is crucial for everyone. And as you said, everyone has something. And I know it's. It holds practical significance for women more than men.
Women are more likely to experience certain mental health conditions, such as depression, anxiety, eating disorders, a combination of biological, hormones, cultural factors, menstruation, pregnancy, and menopause; all of these can be extra factors to give it. Also, add above it. If women usually have multiple rules like caregiver, employer, and partner, it can lead to stress, burnout, and mental exhaustion. All of this life is not easy. I'm talking about women now because that was what I was reading; I was really shocked that women have a higher risk of mental health than men. And that's why women take many more sick days than men. And especially for women from underrepresented groups, mental health is more even crucial because they often face additional barriers that can negatively impact their mental well-being. Barriers can. This may include discrimination, racism, challenges, and limited access to a quality healthcare system, and I believe women of color, LGBTQ, women with disabilities, and women with low-income backgrounds also can give less access or less asking for help. And also it's the support group around you that very. It's very. How can I say? It's a very bad combination. I don't want to say it is a bad combination, but I hope you people get what I mean. All of these factors can contribute to high rates of mental health issues. Depression, anxiety, PTSD. All of us have it. And as you said, working from home before COVID-19. I was. How can I say it? I never ever sit at home. I was going out and through COVID, and I was during COVID time, and after that, I started loving my loneliness, which is weird. My personality. I love people, I love to talk, and I love to go out. When I noticed that I started coming to the office back after COVID-19, I started to feel overwhelmed. I started to be annoyed by people.
And with everything combined, my background and also my mother passed away and all of those things, it is. Sometimes, it's very difficult for those things to come heavy on you. And as you said. Yeah, especially in tech, people work more from home. They turn to isolate themselves more. And that causes a lot of mental health issues. And we don't mean it like, I don't mean it in a way, but as you said, all of us have something PTSD from childhood anxiety.
A lot of people, especially in tech, have more burnout than any other career. So all of this is.
It's not a good factor to combine.
[00:15:53] Speaker A: Yeah, for sure. I'm asking you personally when you feel yourself, and it's okay if you don't want to answer. When you feel yourself having negative thoughts. And I don't mean necessarily suicidal thoughts. I'm not talking about suicidal ideations. But when you start to feel yourself feeling depressed or feeling anxious, do you have somebody that you talk to or a coping mechanism that you use that helps you? I mean, I know the things that I do, but I want to know what you do.
[00:16:21] Speaker B: Sadly, because my sisters are still living in a war zone, I feel ashamed to complain about what I feel like. I'm not gonna go sometimes. This racism is small. I call it hidden racism. That's happened with you in the train station or nearby shop, or something gets work or the anxiety or I have depression after my mom passed away. I also didn't talk to my family about it because I'm also from a background in mental health.
Nobody goes there. It's starting recently. People start talking about it. If you go to. I'm going to a psychiatrist or psychologist. Then he told you're crazy immediately. Like, why did you? Why do you go there? You'll be fine, you know? So what I do, which is crazy. My husband is my psychologist. Sometimes, he doesn't get it, so I let it go. But I once read a novel by Paula Coelho. It's called The Witch of Portobello. There, he talks about a very charming girl. She does something to make her happy. I started doing it a long time ago, and it works. I just put on my headphones; I listen to music. Sad. Sometimes, even if I'm not feeling okay, I'm crying. I put on happy music, and I started dancing with myself.
And sometimes I put on nice red lipstick. I just put on perfume. Even if I, like, I'm not going anywhere, you know, just. Just put nice accessories or jewelry I have, and I dance with myself, like a crazy person, in the kitchen, sometimes in the bedroom. And it just. After 5-10 minutes, I'm happy, you know? And then I start remembering, um, happy memory. No one's like. I fully envy that person. I know they don't exist. Nobody, all of the time, they're happy. There's some stuff happening. There are so many things happening to you. They hunt you down. And it's okay to be sad, but sometimes I always believe you need help to get out of it, but you also need to be willing to get out of it.
[00:18:30] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah, no, I understand.
[00:18:32] Speaker B: Yeah. What is your health mechanism?
[00:18:36] Speaker A: So, for me, over the years, I've tried different things, of course. And I think I mentioned this on a previous episode, like, I'm not medicated now because I'm not living in the headspace that I was living in 15 years ago. But when I first did take medication, I don't think there's anything wrong with medication, by the way. I think if your brain has a chemical imbalance and a doctor helps you find the way the right medication, then that is a valid way to deal with mental health.
And so I was talking to a friend from church. I may have mentioned this event last week. I was talking to a friend from church who said to. I was talking to her about having this depression and dealing with the thoughts and things that were in my head. And she said, well, as long as they don't put you on medication, God can, you know, trust God to help you feel better. And I told her, well if you have the flu or strep throat, don't you take medication?
Well, yes. I said, well, don't. Why don't you just trust God to get rid of your strep throat? Just trust God to get rid of your pneumonia.
I am also using medication in the way that you would use antibiotics because there's something that's not right in my brain, and I need assistance to make sure that I am in the right space to be able to live my life positively. And she didn't seem to understand that, but for me, so for a while, it was medication, but I also use meditation, I use art. I take my camera out, and most people know I'm somebody who uses mobility devices. So, I show people, like, you can see if you're if you're watching if you're listening, I'm sorry, you'll have to look later. But all these photos on the wall behind me are all pictures that I've taken. And I think every one of those photos was taken from the front seat of my car. As I drive, I pull over, see things, pick up my camera, and take pictures. And so people say, oh, you must go hiking. You, you know, you're out in nature photography. I'm like, nope, it's all from my car. You know, I should, like, my website should be from my car photography. It's not.com. But for me, especially during the pandemic, I was living in a one-bedroom apartment, a very small, 700 sqft apartment. And, you know, there were two rooms because the kitchen and living room were one area, the bedroom was another, and then the bathroom. And so I could have gone very stir crazy and had a very cabin fever because there were no stores open, and there were no places to go, but I could still get in my car by myself with my cameras and go places and take photos of nature. And that helped me, in a lot of ways, get out of that space. And then Legos, I don't. Can you see it? Oh, yeah. So the flowers here are Lego flowers. Yes. And I think these ones here are Lego flowers. I have so many more that you can't see in the frame. But I ordered my first Lego set during the lockdown, and now I have; you can probably if I move, you can see all those boxes in the corner. There are probably $1,000 worth of Lego sets I still have to do in the corner because finding things that keep my hands busy is a way for me to stay in mental spaces where I can meditate while doing other things. And so I find those are my happy place, if you will, and my way. I don't dance because, you know, I mean, I could chair dance, right, but.
And I think that for you, dancing is something I love. And I can picture you with your lipstick, hair, and headphones dancing around your kitchen, and I go, exactly. And I can see how that would be something that would lift you, like, that way. And I think it's important that we all find something like that that can lift us. But then also, if that's not working, please seek professional help. If you just to our audience in general, if you find yourself in a space where you are, you have mental twisties in technology, please seek help because I promise you are worth it. You are worth whatever it takes to be in a place of mental health, mental wellness, and mental well-being. You matter to us, to this world. You have a place, and you should be here. So, never, ever, please let your mental health convince you that you don't belong here on this earth. Please. I'm just putting that out there right now. Please seek help if that's where you are, where you are mentally. Earlier this year, I was telling you that before we started recording, I was one of the organizers for Wordcamp Buffalo. It's only an hour and 20 minutes away from where I live. And early that week, I made the decision that I was not going to attend Wordcamp Buffalo. And it's difficult to make a decision. I am the biggest Yolo person when it comes to WordPress events. I hate it. I love being with people, being with our community, talking to people, and being a part of that.
But I knew that week that my physical and mental health were not going to allow me to work a full week, work through the weekend for a WordCamp, and then start back up on Monday, the following week with any semblance of physical and mental well being, positive physical and mental well being. And so even though it was crushing me because people brought, like, my Canadian friends brought me, like, Canadian food, and I wasn't there to eat it, you know, those kinds of things, it feels like you're missing out because you kind of are. But I never got off the couch that weekend. Like, I ate food that I ordered food in and had pizza. I watched movies that I wanted to watch, and I allowed myself to have some downtime and not feel guilty about not being there, not feeling like I was missing out on a lot of stuff. I was living vicariously. I was. I was celebrating what was happening there through Twitter and Slack. And not one single person on the team who was speaking or attending Buffalo had anything negative to say about my absence. All of them said, oh, I'm so sorry you weren't there. Are you okay? And I said, yeah. I was in a place where, physically and mentally, I knew that I couldn't push myself any further. And everyone said, either we got this, we got anything you were going to do, we got it covered. Don't worry about it. Or we missed you. But I'm so glad that you prioritized yourself, and that's what we need in our community: to be able to say to people that it's okay that you couldn't be there. I'm so happy that you prioritized yourself, your mental well-being, and your physical health. We got this, and we'll see you at the next event you can attend. Those are the people that are so good to have in our community.
[00:25:28] Speaker B: I agree with you. And as you said, it's okay not to be okay. Once in a while, it's okay to step down. And sometimes that is also.
It's very. You're. I'm proud of you; you're brave enough to take it. And sometimes, people just keep going. And that's why the effect will be much bigger. The harm will be much bigger. So I think if someone hears that you're not okay, it's okay to pull. To pull back. It's okay to have me time once in a while. It doesn't mean that you don't like people. It means, like, it's okay to. To sit and see how you go. And also, at the same time. Yeah, I encourage everyone, if you need help, to reach out. If you cannot afford it, I'm pretty sure there's a lot of help, a lot of organizations help with it, speak up with people and. Yeah, and help each other, because it's really, it's one of the biggest. How can? It's a disease, and people should look at it as the flu, and if you don't cure it in the right way, it will give you more harm. It will be fine, and burying things one day gonna explode. And that is, that is something that is gonna be horrible. And as you were talking earlier about your friend from church, when I'm living in a culture, a lot of us believers, and sometimes if you're not a believer, if you don't practice religion as a Muslim or a Christian, there's kind of the community, or you have a sense of guilt, because then you're not from them. And I believe one of the most horrible things to say to someone depressed is just to ask God, whatever your religion is, like Christians, Muslim, Judaism, just go to pray to God; that guilt will eat that person alive because then that's the trick of mind will do that. The mind will start thinking that maybe if you're a believer, you will not get depression. Maybe then he's feeling the guilt. And that is one of the worst things to happen.
[00:27:33] Speaker A: And what did you do if you are praying and nothing happens?
Why is God not helping me? Right. So it's, if you are a religious person, remind yourself that your God created the people who created those medications. Your God created the doctors who understand how to help you. And so I think it's important to put things in their proper perspective. And not to say science is wrong, but God created the science that, you know, if that's how if that's your belief system. And so I agree 100%. And I think that in the United States, I don't know about other countries, and I know this podcast is not US-centric. However, I'm going to say this anyway, and I think that it's probably true in many other countries. In the United States, we have something called the national suicide hotline, and now you can even text it, right? So if I've been like, I see all these disclaimers at the end of television programs, like, if you are feeling helpless, blah, blah, blah, there's help, you know, and they put these text numbers and things, and phone numbers and websites that you can reference. And so even though I know that this is not US-centric, I'm going to put those on this episode so that if you are somebody, if you're listening to this and you think that you, and that we've given you even a glimmer of hope, and I hope we have, that you will reach out to somebody who can help you if you're having those thoughts.
I'll put that information on there. If you are not in the United States and these numbers don't work for you, please find out where you can get help and guidance in your own country.
I have only ever had suicidal ideations once, and it was from a medication, and it wasn't even a mental health medication from a different medication. I don't want to say the name of it because I don't want people to think that that medication is bad. It was bad for me. So, I was able to take myself off of that medication, and immediately, my suicidal ideations left. I was fortunate enough to recognize what was happening in my own brain and say; this doesn't feel right. Something's not right. And so I was able to correct that. I would never wish those thoughts on anybody else in the entire world, even, you know, my worst enemies. Not that I have many enemies, but even on the worst people in society, I would not wish those kinds of thoughts. And so if you are somebody who's struggling with mental well-being and you don't know where to turn, please find somebody that you can talk to and ask somebody for help, whether it's a doctor or somebody else. I do recognize, as you said, that in certain cultures, seeking help can be very dangerous.
But I really do hope that whoever you are and wherever you live, there's somebody in your life who could help you find perspective. It's very dangerous to be left alone with your own thoughts when you don't know how to control them.
So.
Oh, my.
This has been a very serious conversation, but I think that serious conversations need to happen. I'm glad that we are in a place where we can have those conversations.
Yeah, and if all else fails and you need to find help, if you reach out to us, we will do our best to find you wherever you live. We will do our best to help you find somebody or some organization that can help you. We are not connected to everything in the world, but we care, and we will definitely do what we can to help you.
[00:31:01] Speaker B: And just by talking, reach out. And at the end, everyone. There are people who love you. There are people who care about you, even if you don't think so, just there are people who love you.
And at the same time. Yeah. Just like, reach out, reach out, ask for help. There's no shame in asking for help. It's actually a very brave act to ask for help and say, I have a problem; I need help, and you'll feel much better after it.
[00:31:31] Speaker A: So. Yeah, absolutely.
All right. I don't know what we're going to talk about next week.
[00:31:36] Speaker B: No, we don't know.
[00:31:38] Speaker A: We haven't figured that out yet. We had a couple of weeks planned there. But if you have ideas and there are things that you think we should talk about, I know we've gotten some inquiries about people who have topics who want to be on the show. So we may be bringing on some more guests in the next month or two, but we'll talk about that offline before we figure that out. But if you have ideas or some topics you think we should cover, please let us know. You can dm us. You don't have to say it publicly if you don't want to. You can email us, visit our website, or fill out the content. You can DM us any of our social media channels, or you could DM either one of us personally, and we'd be happy to discuss something, you know, your topics in a future episode. So, thanks for hanging out there with us. Be well, and we love you all.
[00:32:25] Speaker B: Yeah, stay safe. Love you.
[00:32:27] Speaker A: Bye-bye.
If you're interested in using our database, joining us as a guest for an episode, or just want to say hi, go to underrepresentedintech.com. see you next week.
