Episode Transcript
[00:00:02] Speaker A: Hello, Samah.
[00:00:05] Speaker B: Hello, Michelle. How are you?
[00:00:07] Speaker A: I am good. I'm even better because we have some guests with us today who I hold in very high esteem in the WordPress community. So, I'd like to introduce them right off the bat. So today, we have Nadia Maya Ardiani and Miriam Schwab with us. Welcome to both of you.
[00:00:25] Speaker C: Thanks for having me.
[00:00:27] Speaker A: Yeah, I'm so grateful that you both said you wanted to talk about our episode today.
[00:00:34] Speaker D: And thank you, Michelle and Samah, for having me too.
[00:00:38] Speaker A: Yes, of course. Thank you for saying yes when I asked. So, I will let Samah talk about our topic today because she's the researcher. Y'all know that by now. She's the one that's got all the numbers in front of her. So, I'm going to let her introduce the topic while I drink my coffee.
[00:00:54] Speaker B: Okay, awesome. As everyone knows, Michelle and I love TikTok, but of course, we have known this information before. I think maybe tomorrow, the 24th of July, they will be starting the French Olympics. And there's a lot of movement online about banning women with veils or Muslim women or any woman wearing a veil from participating.
Presenting the French country in the Olympics. And at the same time, last week, there was amnesty. On Tuesday, Amnesty International published a report calling out French authorities for discrimination and crossing a number of sports. They cross a number of sports, including soccer, volleyball, and basketball. They accused the French government of discriminating against women. And also at the same time, they kind of a little bit mentioning an article that the French government wants to save Muslim women by controlling them.
I totally understand.
If you look at all the women around the world, I still believe it's your freedom to wear a veil or not to wear a veil, to be religious, to dress the way that you want, if you want to dress Burkini and go to the beach, if you want to dress whatever you want. And it's not allowed for any government or any officials to tell us what to do. And yeah, that is what we want to talk about. It's also important to know how it's different to stand out in the IT community, especially if you wear a veil, a headscarf, or a wig.
Yeah, that's it.
[00:02:36] Speaker A: Yeah. So, I have a long history of working with women who wear headscarves. When I was working in higher education for 20 years I even, I'll tell you the funniest story. So I said to a woman one day, I had dreamt about her the night before and in my dream, she took off her headscarf and she had the curliest hair. And she says, my hair is very straight. You missed it.
But that is to say that, even in my psyche, there's a mystique about when somebody chooses to cover their head or body parts. I know that some women wear a niqab or burka; it covers their face except for their eyes. And so we wanted to talk with some people in the tech community and in the WordPress community who are currently practicing Nadia or who have practiced head covering Miriam. There will be an open discussion about what it's like to be a woman in tech who has these customs, traditions, practices, and religious practices and how that has affected you. So I want to open up the floor and hear your stories if that's okay.
Who wants to go first?
[00:03:49] Speaker D: Nadia.
[00:03:49] Speaker A: I'll pick on you.
[00:03:51] Speaker D: Okay. By the way, you guys, feel free to call me Maya because I thought so.
[00:03:57] Speaker C: Okay.
[00:03:58] Speaker A: I'm like, I don't know. It says it on the screen, but I was like, I always call her Maya, but it says Nadia. Maybe she's doing something different now. Okay, go ahead.
[00:04:06] Speaker D: Yeah, I sometimes hit my first name because, like, I just don't feel like Nadia. I feel more like Maya. So, like, I like it.
[00:04:18] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:04:18] Speaker D: So, yeah, so I'm Maya from Indonesia, and I've been, like, I just started to wear hijab, I think, since I'm 22. So it's like, yeah, some years ago. Like a decade ago. So, yeah, I started to use it because, that's the right thing to do for me.
I'm practicing Muslim, so, yeah, I do that as part of what I think is right in me when doing my religious practice. And, yeah, there are, and I don't.
I started to realize that it stood out. Standing out that during WordPress.
During WordPress events, my first flagship WordCamp was WordCamp Asia 2023 in Bangkok. And that was the first time I realized that there are not many people who look like me. I mean, that's still. That's still in Asia. And it's supposed to be more people who look like me there, but turns out it's not really. And when I found some who wear c chap, they mostly, like, pretty shy to come forward because they feel like, oh, there's not many people who look like me, so they tend to stand in the shadow. That's when I had an interview with Michelle, and we talked about the importance of showing up, even though you're the only person who feels like you.
That's when I start to think, yeah, it's okay. Even though there are not many people who look like me, at least we speak the same language, which is WordPress. And technology.
[00:06:35] Speaker A: So, yeah, to be fair, I did not tell her. She had to. I just encouraged her. Are you about to do this?
[00:06:44] Speaker D: Yeah, that's a really, what is it? Like igniting my courage at that point.
[00:06:55] Speaker A: I'm glad.
[00:06:56] Speaker D: Really. It's really sweet.
[00:06:58] Speaker A: Excellent. Miriam, what about you?
[00:07:02] Speaker C: So I also started covering my hair when I was around 22.
But in Judaism, we start to cover our hair when we get married. That's actually when I got married. I got married young, and it was like a no-brainer to me that I was going to cover my hair because I grew up religious. I still am religious. And, you know, the women in our family all covered their hair one way or another. But, you know, it was just how it was, and I didn't feel anything against it. I actually was very okay with it.
I had to figure out for myself how I felt comfortable covering my hair. There are many different opinions in Judaism.
So even the rabbis will have different opinions and perspectives. So the way you can cover your hair can range from, like, literally like a hair band, which a lot of young women do today when they get married, to a head scarf that covers, let's say, most of your hair, to a headscarf that covers all of your hair.
Some women from some groups, usually like Hasidic groups, not only wear wigs but wigs are worn either because it's hard to wear a headscarf all the time. We appreciate our hair, and to never be able to show it, it's really challenging. The wig can be for women, who find it hard to do, but there are some religious sects that say that the wig is ideal because it covers every single strand of your real hair. So there's that protective, and there's even. I was just standing behind a woman in line the other day. She was wearing a wig and then a hat on top of it. So you can go from, like, the most minimal thing to, like, doubling up your head, covering all the layers, depending on your, like, level of observance or what you feel comfortable with or what speaks to you, also, depending on which group you're in. So I decided pretty early on I didn't want to wear a wig, first of all. Oh, my gosh. So hot. It's like wearing a hair hat.
[00:09:16] Speaker A: I can't believe it.
[00:09:18] Speaker C: And just for me, I was like, well, if I'm covering my hair, I feel like I shouldn't be pretending I'm not. And I was. I'm proud of my Jewish identity, and so I didn't feel like I needed to hide it. And in my family, most women wore scarves most of the time, so I went with that. It was just the easiest. And, you know, you can switch out your scarves. We can wear different colors and all kinds of stuff.
And so that's. So I just. I started covering my hair, and I did that throughout all the years of my marriage.
I didn't cover all of it. Like, I had a ponytail on the back that was out. That was what felt most comfortable to me.
But I was visibly wearing a headscarf in all environments and scenarios, which brings with it certain advantages.
It's not exactly complex, but it makes you, in one way, from one perspective, it's like to be modest, and on the other hand, depending on where you are, you can totally stand out more because you're wearing it.
So. But I embraced it almost in some ways as part of my brand.
If you want to find Miriam at a conference, look for the one person, Maya, like you, wearing a head covering. And I remember being at a very big conference at one point, and someone had said they wanted to meet me, and I was like, okay, we'll figure it out. Anyways, I see him. He comes through the crowd. At some point, he's like, Miriam, I just looked for the person with the headscarf, and I found you. So it works. It works. So, like, it can help you stand out in some ways.
So, having said all that, I was okay with it all those years, and it was part of my identity. I also went to the first WordCamp, an international WordCamp. I spoke at WorkCamp Europe in Leiden, the first one in the Netherlands.
I was like, what will people think of me? I look weird too, you know, I'm, like, a weirdo.
People were very nice, obviously, because it's WordPress, and everyone's so nice, and I think people were curious. But also, people don't ask, which, by the way, people can always ask anything in general. For me, it's just asking. It's not like it's a. That's fine. I'll just say if I don't feel comfortable saying something, but everyone was nice. What I always felt throughout the years is whether it was people who weren't Jewish and weren't familiar or weren't familiar with this, the whole thing, or also non-religious Jews, they don't really know how to approach you because you're wearing a headscarf. They think they're, like, uncomfortable. Like, can we talk? Can I look at her? What? You know, can I shake her hand? And, you know, all that kind of stuff. And it can be a level of awkwardness that can hold relationships back. But if you talk enough and get to know each other enough, then you see it's Miriam with a headscarf. She's still the same person, and it's fine.
So I learned I had to have patience and give people a chance to get to know me and see I'm just a person.
Even so, having said all that and being comfortable with my headscarf when I got divorced, I took it off because, in Judaism, it's a sign of being married. And I just didn't want that sign anymore. Not because I wanted to be like, hey, world, I'm available. But it didn't suit my stage of life anymore. And so that's why I took it off.
[00:12:33] Speaker A: I took off my wedding ring when I divorced for the same reason. So, it makes sense.
[00:12:38] Speaker C: It doesn't represent where we're at. It's connected to a stage of our life that's not like we're not there anymore.
[00:12:44] Speaker A: Yeah, exactly. Now, with a headscarf that you would tie around your head, it definitely looks different than a hijab, right? So hijab, we all recognize that as being an absolute symbol of a Muslim woman, right?
But with a headscarf, did anybody ever, like, confuse you with, oh, maybe you're going through cancer, and you have chemotherapy or like, any of those other kinds of things that women might use a headscarf for? Or maybe you were jet-setting to the Bahamas or something. I don't know.
[00:13:18] Speaker C: So when I was raising funding for Stradik, which is a startup that I co-founded, we flew to San Francisco and that area, and we were meeting investors there. And I did all of that wearing a headscarf, which is really crazy, like, looking back, but I was like, this is who I am, take it or leave it kind of thing.
[00:13:40] Speaker A: Not sure.
[00:13:40] Speaker C: Leave it like, obviously, like, I want.
[00:13:43] Speaker A: This is who you are.
[00:13:44] Speaker C: This is who I am. And I'm like, it's not changing, so I'm not gonna pretend for this situation that I'm something else. Also, if anyone would look online, I'd already spoken quite a lot, and, you know, you can find me with a headscarf. So it's not like everyone was totally fine, and nobody said anything. But also, Americans tend to sell, so they're like, oh, I'm not gonna ask you about anything. But my conclusion there was that they figured I'm so, like, a lot of them just figured I'm some kind of hippie.
[00:14:11] Speaker A: Especially in California.
[00:14:14] Speaker C: I'm a tech hippie or something.
In Europe, when I would be wearing a headscarf, a lot of people thought I was Muslim. Fine. Like, they can think what they want, so they think that because you don't see a lot of Jewish women wearing headscarves around. So that was the conclusion. Nobody ever thought it was anything. At least, I don't remember anyone thinking it was anything beyond being a hippie or Muslim.
[00:14:40] Speaker A: That is so funny.
Maya, what have your experiences been? Have you had anybody in the tech community, especially, interact with you in either a very positive way because of your hijab or a very negative way because of it? I'm curious what some of your experiences might have been.
[00:15:00] Speaker D: Also, I'm happy that the experience so far has been just, like, how I interact with anybody usually. So, I mean, it's very regular, nothing special.
And I really appreciate that people don't put me in a special behavior like that. And it's. I also relate to how Miriam said that. Some people tend to be a little bit awkward when they want to talk to us. Like, can you? Can you speak to a male?
I found it funny that one time during WordCamp flagship, too.
You know, there are so many, like, American and European people who are really tall, and I'm so tiny, and I tend to, like, stand a bit, like, a bit further from them, and they thought that I could not be very close to men, but in fact, it's because I cannot see their eyes, so I have to, like. So I have to go further.
Yes. If not, I.
[00:16:13] Speaker A: Wonderful.
[00:16:15] Speaker D: It's really tiring for my neck if I do this all day.
And they were like, oh, my God. It's a practical reason. Yeah.
[00:16:27] Speaker A: Tears in my eyes. I'm laughing so hard.
[00:16:33] Speaker D: Oh, my gosh.
[00:16:34] Speaker A: That's just wonderful. I love that story.
[00:16:36] Speaker D: Yeah, that's really wonderful. I'm like, oh, this is really nice.
[00:16:41] Speaker A: at least they're trying to give you respect, even if they don't know why.
[00:16:45] Speaker D: Yeah, I'm trying. Like, and that's during my booth shift on hostinger. I mean when I have to explain the product and they ask that, I really do my best to hold my laugh during that time.
Customer, you have to be professional.
[00:17:11] Speaker A: I have one tiny little story, and I'm going to turn things over to Samah because I've been running the show, and I've been heard. I have an opportunity to talk. But my first flagship was the first-ever WordCamp US in Philadelphia. And I didn't know hardly anybody. I knew maybe five or six people from some local WordCamps. And I was walking down one of the halls, and I saw a woman at the other end of the hall with an Ewok hat, with the ears and, like, the cowl and everything. And I thought, man, if you could wear that, you could really wear anything to a WordCamp.
[00:17:45] Speaker D: This actually can be counted as hijab. I mean, yeah.
[00:17:52] Speaker B: It's.
[00:17:52] Speaker D: Technically.
[00:17:55] Speaker B: I'm really impressed by both of you and your story, but I just want to ask you a question. Like, I know it's sometimes. I don't want to say difficult, but maybe at the beginning, it's a little bit uncomfortable to be outstanding. Like the way we look because we are human beings. The first time we look is like how we see each other, especially in the world, because, as you said, Maya and Miriam, it was you, the only one with a headscarf or the only one with the. With the hijab. So, how can people be more supportive and respectful of women who choose to wear a veil or headscarf?
I know that, Miriam, you said, like, oh, it's okay so that anyone can ask me questions, but what questions? Or how we can talk about it. It's okay if you want to ask more questions or know more about it.
[00:18:55] Speaker C: So, in terms of asking questions. So I'm saying it here now because, hopefully, people will listen to this. And people often want to ask me questions, like personal questions, and they are held back about anything.
People can feel like, in general, you can ask.
And in terms of what, let's say, a headscarf means at the time, I'm not sure what people can ask about it, but I think you know, we live in generally in societies, or at least in WordPress land, what I call it, we embrace differences. Right? You can look however you want to look, and nobody's judging about that. And in fact, it's good for you to be unique. So, the same here. This is another way to be unique, at least in WordPress. And so what kind of thing, or, like, what should I be viewed differently?
I've spoken to other religious people. So, in Judaism, men also wear what's called a kippah. It's like, I don't know. I don't know how to describe it. It's a thing that they wear on their head if they're religious.
Men have said that women said to me that they don't want to wear any religious symbols because they don't want to stand out as being different. And I'm like, why not?
Are we so afraid of being different? And also, if someone judges any of us for being different, that's on them, not on us. And we don't have to walk around being afraid that we don't fully fit in because someone might be uncomfortable with a difference. Like, talk to us, meet us as a person, see that we're like you.
And, yeah, if you're being judgmental, it's on you. It's on me. I don't have to hide who I am or pretend to be something different because of that. Within reason, of course. Like, you know, I'm. I don't want to. I won't encroach on anyone else's space way of life. Like, I'm not going. I don't expect anyone to do anything for me, around me, because of me. Right. But I can exist as a different person, and that should be okay.
[00:21:04] Speaker B: No, that's cool. Yeah.
[00:21:08] Speaker D: Yeah, I totally agree with what Miriam had said. And, yeah, it's like, anyone basically can ask anything. And maybe it's, yeah, for many people, it's very awkward to know whether that will offend us or not. But, yeah, I think it's worth just trying to shoot the question because, yeah, and I think also it's okay not to be the same as everyone else. We don't have to be the same to connect. So it's okay just to. Just to be yourself.
[00:21:59] Speaker C: If I can add to that, one of the things that I love from the beginning of being part of the WordPress community is that it gave me the opportunity to step outside of my bubble. In the end, we all live in some form of bubble. And meeting people who are different, which is incredible. You hear different perspectives or a bunch of cultures and learn from other people. So. But if we all are the same, we lose that; it is a shame. So, it's to be embraced and encouraged to have differences among us. It's fine.
[00:22:33] Speaker A: It must be nice never to have a bad hair day, too. I'm just going to say that right now.
[00:22:37] Speaker C: Oh, my gosh. By the way, that was one of the things that I loved.
[00:22:41] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:22:42] Speaker D: And it's like when. I mean, I live in a very hot country, and when my people and friends all have a bad hair day, I have bad hair. I'm so sweaty. I was like, totally.
[00:22:56] Speaker C: So, for me, it was one of the things that I loved. And then, after I stopped covering my hair, I actually. I hadn't had my hair out for so many years, and I have curly hair. I didn't know what to do with it. In the beginning, was a disaster. It was all over the place, and I was like, how do I make it look like normal curls? I still. It's, you know, with curly hair; one day is fine, and the next day's disaster. You don't know exactly, but I had to learn how to handle my hair. When I was covering my hair, it was just, like, ponytail done, ready to go, and it didn't matter.
[00:23:22] Speaker A: Well, there are Elementor baseball hats. I have one you can always wear for a bad hair day.
[00:23:28] Speaker C: Yeah, you're right. I can be like, I'm wearing it for the style.
[00:23:31] Speaker A: That's right. I'm just styling today. Have either of you ever felt threatened because of having a headscarf on in the past, whether it was in the tech community or not? Because that's an important factor, too, to talk about safety and making sure that you are always in a safe environment that way, specifically in tech, but also in general. I fear for people sometimes who you hear are like, their head scars are being ripped from their heads, and their lives are being threatened because of their beliefs and how that's represented. So I did want to ask if that's okay.
[00:24:09] Speaker D: I honestly, when I go outside Asia, I mean, Asia feels safer for me because, like, there are more Muslims there, but when I go outside Asia, there's that fear. I mean, is it okay for me to walk, like, go around by myself? But, yeah, but, yeah, so far, I'm fine. I mean, I'm here now. So yes, a little bit.
[00:24:40] Speaker C: When I started traveling to Europe, I was afraid because there's a lot of antisemitism there, and I was afraid of being identified as a jew, like being visibly Jewish and potentially being attacked.
That never happened. I have a theory, which I don't know if it's true, that throughout my career, wearing a head covering created a certain level of healthy distance between me and men. What I mean by that is men tended to; on the one hand, it meant they were less relaxed around me, but on the other hand, it meant they were less relaxed and wouldn't say inappropriate things.
Since taking off my head covering, I've experienced more of those types of inappropriate comments, though, in fact, you could say that it's the opposite where the head covering, in a way, protected me from that.
[00:25:35] Speaker A: I can understand that, absolutely.
Sama, do you have more questions or comments on stories?
[00:25:44] Speaker B: No, I don't know. I'm thinking about the question three times before asking it to make sure that I can ask the right thing. No, I'm really, really impressed by both of you. I know both of you are presenting community, presenting a statement that it's all by your choice. Because I know Maya, maybe she understands I'm also a Muslim woman, but I don't wear a veil. And sometimes, veiled women also have to face something they ask you: did your family force you to do it? And that sometimes it really can cause like no. And then a lot of conversations. Personally, I don't like to go through it sometimes because I believe it's, as we mentioned in the last episode, 1.5 billion Muslims in Asia. It's a huge, big number and also huge traditions added to it with your culture; I want to ask you, I know I didn't notice a lot of veiled women in WordCamp Europe and also WordCamp the US and also with Hitscarf also the same for Maria.
I know it's a very safe environment, but how can we make it more welcoming for women with headscarves or veils or from different cultures? I'm not talking about women who wear veils; I'm talking about different women all around the world because Michelle and I talked a couple of times about the need for more speaker diversity and a diverse speaker line in WordCamps. We need more women to join the WordPress community.
Yeah. Any special message you would like to share?
[00:27:25] Speaker D: I think it's actually nothing not directly related to hijab or anything, but it is actually the fact that during WordCamp Asia. There's a signage for halal food. I noticed in WordCamp US. We have to have certain cards that say halal kosher, but there is no signage whether something is halal or kosher. So having. Having that halal signage it simply makes me feel welcome. Like, oh, like there's a place for me here. I mean, for. Even for eating, there's a place for me. So, yeah, that means there's a place for me to exist.
[00:28:11] Speaker C: So, yeah, that's a really nice point.
It's. I don't think it's like a policy thing. It's just how they end up organizing the food. Because I'm just thinking back, sometimes I had a ticket, and sometimes went online.
But it's nice to have that because, a, it says we have people who observe these traditions and practices here. B, I remember standing in line at one of the conferences, where Kosher and Khalal were right next to each other, and something had happened with both of our food or us both. Both of us had experienced something. I was talking to some Muslims who had ended up being fed, like, they were given food that they were told was okay and that not at the word camp. It was outside work camp anecdotal, our experiences of trying to figure out what to eat when we're traveling, which is not easy.
They were given food at a restaurant. They were like, yeah, it's fine. But then it ended up having pork in it. Oh, my gosh. This was traumatic. So we were commiserating around the food while we were standing in line at these places, which I think is nice to share these experiences that we have.
And I've noticed that women wear hijab at conferences.
There are very few, right? And they often. My sense, and I might be wrong, and I hope I'm not offending anyone, but they seem shy and at the side, and I don't know how to be too aggressive. Even for me, I'm like, what should I do? But if you have a line for halal, then they can meet other people who have more experience in the WordPress community.
And then maybe that's an opportunity to be like, hey, it's so nice you're here. Are you new people that, you know, look, when I would wear my headscarf, one of the? One of the things that kept me going was that I felt like other women wanted to wear headscarves or didn't see other people out there like them. It's kind of like the importance of diversity in general. Like, if you see more women on stage, then you feel like as a woman, you could be on stage also, if you're wearing a hijab or if you're wearing a headscarf and you see that on stage, you're like, oh, I can do that too. So that might be an opportunity to network around our food to make new people feel comfortable. I'm always curious to see who else orders kosher. Like, somehow, I see piles of kosher food. I'm like, who else is keeping kosher besides me? And when is the cofounder of Elementor there? Like, you know, but it's interesting. We meet people at the table and commiserate over the food. It's a social experience opportunity.
[00:30:45] Speaker A: I know. And I'm not going to call out the particular camp where you were promised kosher food, but you had to doordash food in because there was very little food that you could actually eat. And so I think since that time, I've seen, from my perspective, more food-inclusive inclusion. But has that also been your experience?
[00:31:08] Speaker C: Oh, definitely. And also it's hard. It's hard to figure it out. Like, you think something's, like, what happened with that guy that I was talking to?
People think that kosher means something, and then. But, like, it's much more complicated than that. So, like, I'm not. I don't judge, and I. And I appreciate it when it works out because it's really nice of them to make an effort. It's not easy, but pretty much. And even at that WordCamp, in the end, they actually managed to figure it out for the next day. And from that point on, I and the others had meals, and generally there's definitely an effort to make sure that we have kosher food. So imagine it's the same halal.
[00:31:48] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:31:48] Speaker C: And I really appreciate it. For many years, there wasn't even that option. Kosher wasn't in the dropdown because, seriously, there's like three of us.
There's apparently more. But I. Yeah, so I really appreciate it. And they're doing a good job. Very good job.
[00:32:05] Speaker A: I'm glad to hear it. Yeah.
[00:32:07] Speaker D: And if I can add. So it's wonderful how food signage can bring down more inclusivity issues. I mean, during what came us. So, I volunteered for the help desk. When it's my shift and during the lunch break, some people like their attendees, and they're approaching me to ask if there is any more halal food. Because I'm actually Muslim, but I don't choose halal here because I don't know. So, it's like, oh, yeah, interesting.
My presence there can bring more people to like sharing their preferences there. So, it's nice if we can open up that stuff like that.
[00:33:06] Speaker A: Yeah. When people see representation, they know you're also a safe person to talk to.
[00:33:11] Speaker D: Yeah, I know.
[00:33:12] Speaker A: Which, you know, it makes all the purple-haired people come and talk to me. I'm just kidding. But I know that I am a representative of disabled people at Wordcamps because I'm the one that people call or message and say, how wide does the aisle need to be? And if we have a countertop this high, is that okay? And things like that? So I know that I'm representing in those ways. Do you feel like you're also representing your culture when you attend an event like that?
[00:33:45] Speaker C: I think inadvertently, yeah.
It's like a byproduct, like this podcast or even in my talks; I gave a talk in Taiwan.
It was like building businesses while raising seven children. Something like that was a topic. And so, of course, comes through my traditions, my background, and then people know about me, know about my background, associated with me, and then something nice that comes out of it is that people love to come and tell me their stories about some Jewish. Something that happened to them. And I hear the best stories. Like, really? They'll be like, I grew up next to the Jewish neighborhood. It was like that kind of stuff. Or my. This guy in one of the conferences, he's like. He's telling me all these Jewish foods and Yiddish foods, and I'm like, okay, how do you know this? He says, my father had a fish shop. We were right next to the Jewish community, so we would make them gefilte fish. I don't know if you know what gefilte fish is, but it's a very Jewish food. It's fish. And I'm laughing because this person who should not really know anything about gefilte fish is like a gefilte fish expert.
I get to hear these great, hilarious stories. You end up being the person that people want to share those stories with, which works for me because I love them. They're good stories.
[00:35:08] Speaker A: I love that, too. Now, both of you are wonderfully nice people. And every time I've ever experienced, you know, talking to you and being with you, do you ever feel that there's a pressure to be nice and not to, like, have a bad day because of the fact that you also are? Maybe, and I know, Miriam, you aren't wearing a headscarf anymore, but in those days, like that, you were representing, and that you didn't want people to think, well, Muslim women are horrible, that she was just so mean to me, or Jewish women are, you know, those kinds of things. Is there a pressure that way, too?
[00:35:45] Speaker D: So far, I haven't felt such pressure. Maybe because I have never been in an environment where I am standing out for an extended time, so I never reached the point where I could be cranky or anything.
So far, I'm still nice.
[00:36:13] Speaker A: I love that. It's like, I know everybody thinks I'm nice, but, man, get me alone, and you're going to hear a few stories.
What about you, Miriam?
[00:36:28] Speaker C: There must be some kind of subconscious thing where I am aware, but I think that's probably the case with anyone who comes from some kind of identifiable group, that there are preconceived notions and, you know, potentially negative perspectives and so. But that doesn't. But I am who I am.
Like, I tend to be who I am in all scenarios. Like, I'm not very good at faking things.
So, like, you're so authentic.
[00:37:07] Speaker A: I'm like, I just.
[00:37:08] Speaker C: Because I had posted a story about how I got home one evening, and I was just sitting in my car, and I couldn't get out. I don't know if I'm sure that's happened to you. You know. You get home; you're just so tired, and I couldn't find the strength to get out. So, I posted a story about that. Oh, my goodness, you're so up and like, oh, that's just like, that's right. And I can't really pretend not to be. So, I am who I am. And I guess maybe like, I'm hoping, not hoping, but there's like an aspect of, well, if you have preconceived notions about the groups that I belong to and you meet me and you, you see that I'm a relatively normal weird person. I am weird, but, like, a normal weird person, then maybe you'll, like, be more open-minded towards groups that you are judging.
But beyond that, I just am who I am.
[00:38:00] Speaker A: I love that about you both, actually.
That's awesome. Anything else, Samah? I know we're kind of coming up on time here.
[00:38:09] Speaker B: Yeah. Nothing like, for me. I'm really impressed by both of the ladies. Yeah, it's really nice to hearing them. And I know that the stories, someone will listen to us and encourage a lot of women because that's how I feel. With Maya, when I saw her in the WordCampus, it was like, I'm not really practicing religion, but I saw she was wearing a veil, and they sit next to her, and I feel like, yeah. Like, yeah, I will be friends with her. And so that something can make you bond with and meet more people in the community. So, yeah, no, not at all. I'm really happy that we talked about this today. So it's.
[00:38:49] Speaker A: I also want to acknowledge that we do know that there are other reasons that people cover their hair for men and women, other religious reasons, and other non-religious reasons. I know a lot of black women who wear wigs. And this is not to say that that is that we don't want also to encourage people to be who they are outside of these two wonderful women, that we can't have everybody on the podcast on the same day. But I did want to acknowledge that I've known Sikh men who have the turban. I've known other people who, for religious or non-religious reasons, do head coverings. And so we just want to say that this representation is actually to say that it's okay to be who you are, to represent your culture, who you are, where you are, and that we do hope that more people will, at the very least, be tolerant, but at best, be accepting and encouraging.
[00:39:41] Speaker B: So, yeah, I totally agree with you. Just be who you are. And everyone is amazing. Everyone is beautiful just the way you are. Yeah, exactly.
[00:39:50] Speaker A: So thank you, Maya. Thank you, Miriam, for being here today. I know that I speak for both of us. We were so excited to have this episode and that you both agreed to be here. So, thank you so much for being here today.
[00:40:01] Speaker B: Thank you.
[00:40:02] Speaker C: Thanks for facilitating this conversation. It's very brave.
It is. Thank you.
[00:40:08] Speaker A: We have the thick skin. We're okay.
[00:40:10] Speaker C: You do.
[00:40:12] Speaker A: We have to deal with what we're doing. But, yeah, our tagline is representation without tokenization. And so. But we do also realize every time we ask somebody to come on and talk to the show, in a way, they are representing. Right. But we never want to tokenize anybody. And having friends like you that we can call on is very important to us. So, again, thank you very much.
[00:40:34] Speaker C: Thank you.
[00:40:35] Speaker A: I'm excited. We actually. We often say we don't know who, or we don't know what our next topic is, but we actually have another guest lined up for next week. Hopefully, things people can always reschedule. We understand that, but we're expecting next week to talk to Kiera, who is a trans woman who made a public transition while working in tech. So, we will talk to her next week about her experiences. And I'm very excited about that conversation also. And being able to be your authentic self with us is an honor for us. So we'll see everybody next week.
[00:41:12] Speaker B: Thank you. See you next week. Bye.
