Episode Transcript
[00:00:00] Speaker A: Welcome to the Underrepresented in Tech podcast, where we talk about issues of underrepresentation and have difficult conversations. Underrepresented in Tech is a free database with the goal of helping people find new opportunities in WordPress and tech.
Hello, Samah.
[00:00:19] Speaker B: Hello, Michelle. How are you?
[00:00:21] Speaker A: I'm good, how are you?
[00:00:23] Speaker B: Good, good, good.
[00:00:24] Speaker A: I'm glad.
I was thinking about Black Friday because, as you know, when you are in sales, you start thinking about Black Friday long before anybody else starts. I'm already starting to submit all of our deals for Stellar WP to all of the different lists where those deals will reside.
And Allie and I talked about this way back, like probably in 2019, about how when you include underrepresented people in your marketing, not only just like in your advertising and so that you see black faces and disabled people and things like that on your ads when you include underrepresented people, I can't talk today. In your decision-making, in all of the processes that go along with marketing, and even in your product creation, you can actually increase your bottom line as well. So having a very white-centric, male-dominated, you know, patriarchal, if that's a word, non-disabled, thin people, whatever, in all of your advertising, but also in all of your decision-making actually gives you a much narrower market than if you are more inclusive. And that especially goes for accessibility. And so surprise to no one. We've already talked about this, and Samah has done some research, but it feels like, you know, it's a month away. Black Friday is about a month away and probably less than that. I didn't look to see what it actually is, but it's next month. And so we thought maybe we could give you some advice as to how to make sure that your websites are a little more accessible and a little more appealing to a wider audience. What do you think?
[00:02:22] Speaker B: I agree with you 100%, and hopefully, someone who can hear us today and maybe they can make some little bit of change in their marketing or even in their website so can reach out to the broader audience and to be more inclusive, you send me a piece of nice information about A11Y or A11Y which is it's a project, it's a shorthand for accessibility, and they name it A11. Why? Because A, it's for accessible 11 it's the letters of the accessibility. And why? Because they end with. That's the letter that's in, of course, with accessibility. And this project is talking about Accessibility in digital design. It's crucial, and it's everyone who should focus on it the project should aim to build a more inclusive, accessible digital experience because when you start, you want to target borders I don't know how to talk today broader.
[00:03:27] Speaker A: I know we're both the same.
We're on the same border.
[00:03:33] Speaker B: Because we love each other. It's continuous.
[00:03:35] Speaker A: It's that's right across the ocean. Yeah.
[00:03:39] Speaker B: It's to reach more audience and be more inclusive of course, like let's talk about numbers disability. I'm going to talk about the USA because it was more honest with the numbers online, more I could remember them. Of course, the research was focused on that disability. One in four Americans has a disability, making accessible technology essential. And for people with disabilities, of course, you have the color or people with visual impairment, or people has dyslexia or a lot of course disabilities really broader than what I already mentioned. But also, of course, they focus on inclusion. Accessibility ensures inclusion. It's not about adding features afterward. It's about removing barriers from the start. Enabling equal participation for everyone. Doesn't matter what your color, ethnicity, difference, background, education, and of course, opportunity. Accessibility improves opportunities practically in employment and opens up potential revenue as billions of dollars could be gained by accommodating accessibility needs. That's why the A11Y project focused on changing people's minds about accessibility in the digital world and making their websites more accessible. Then you will have more customers. I know I said it very simply, but the project is really really fascinating, and of course, we going to mention the link in our post for a deeper dive if somebody wants to know about the AI projects' resources and creating an inclusive digital experience.
But I love that it was already there. I didn't know about it personally. I'm very happy that you shared it, and it's really important to talk about it now. It's not only about an enhanced sense of belonging or being diverse or inclusive.
I don't want to say it in real life or in physical life, but I want to say it online and in the digital world. How can we make the website more inclusive and accessible for everyone?
[00:06:01] Speaker A: Yeah, absolutely. I think it's really interesting. We actually do sometimes refer to the ones as L's Right. So it's like an ally. So they call it. They will abbreviate ally sometimes as well. And we talk about allyship all the time. So I mean it really does dovetail nicely into all of that.
But. But think about if you have a WooCommerce store out and you haven't taken the time to write good descriptions about your products.
How is a blind person or somebody with low vision expected to choose which of the products that they want if you aren't saying what kind of fabric something's made of, you know, specific color, not just red, but bright red or dull red or, you know, muted or maroon or any of those things? Like, we're both wearing red today, but they're very different reds. Right. And so mine is very vibrant, and yours is more sedate. Right. So. And now I feel like I'm just like, whoa, look at my shirt. But. But if you don't give those kinds of descriptions, people don't have an understanding of, you know, what. What is it that they might be purchasing? It's not always enough. It may be enough when you're doing an alt text, like on Twitter, let's say you have a mug. I have a mug, right? And it says love wins.
[00:07:21] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:07:22] Speaker A: Now, if I just write for a description, you know that it says love wins on the mug. That might be enough on Twitter. But you saw that mug. It's got rainbows, it's got flowers, it's got all of the different things on it. It's got, yeah, rainbows and flowers all around. The words are all capital letters.
If I'm going to have. If I'm trying to get somebody to buy that, I need to say more than just, it's a mug. That stuff says love wins. Because if you don't see the mug, all you're picturing is, I don't know what color mug. And all I know is that there are words on it. I don't know anything else about it, but if I explain that it's very floral, very bright, lots of colors, rainbow colors in there, now you know that that means that Love wins. It's about the LGBTQ+ community with the rainbows and things like that on the back. It does say, have a gayday.org right. So that gives you more of a clue as well. But if I don't put all those in the description, how is somebody supposed to know which one of the Love Wins mugs might be all over the Internet? Internet that they want to purchase? So that's just a very simple thing about marketing that can make things more inclusive and help somebody make a purchase. And that's not even talking about the technology and making sure that you have all of the things, your navigation and your header numbers, and there's so much that goes into accessibility on the web. But. But as far as marketing goes, very Simply write good descriptions of the products that you're trying to sell.
Absolutely.
[00:08:54] Speaker B: I agree with you 100%. Also, of course, improving visibility and SEO content is important. It can enhance your website.
Personally, I always, when I buy anything from any company, look at how they design their website or how they target their marketing places. It's the other day, the other day my sister wants to buy some sunblock, which is like that. Then, I checked the company, and I found that all of the people on the website are white people.
[00:09:35] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:09:35] Speaker B: And I said how can I buy some? Like, I don't see anyone who looks like me, and I don't see any more information about the sunblock. What is made, what is in it? Is it like, what is ink? Is there something in it? And then I always, I'm not going to mention that I always buy products from one company because I see different people. They share a lot of information about the product. Their website is easy to navigate. Everything that explains the review is there. Then I feel it more honesty. Yes, it's more expensive. But I want to buy from a good company that presents diversity. First of all, of course, they don't believe in modern slavery. They manufacture in Europe, they don't manufacture around the world, and they bring it with the cheap labor. And also, when I see, let's say, for the naked eye, I can see there are people of different colors on their website. That's also something that makes me happy. Of course, I cannot share my experience because I'm not blind. Like, I never check the images things. But I believe that is important. As you said, with a mug, if you don't describe it, if you don't, if you don't mention it, you're losing a customer. Maybe I'm talking from the side of someone thinking about making business, making money, how you want to reach. If you want to tell me, I love accessibility. I love to improve things in life because if you tell people, let's do it from out of good heart, but let's. You can make money if you improve your accessibility, and it can reach out to a broader audience. And also it's.
We have an accessibility act in Europe starting next year. There's a law that if your website is accessible, then people will start to get a fine, or I think they will shut down the website, or I don't know what they're going to do. But I was happy about it. Also, it's not only in places like parking spots for Disabled people or this. Make sure this place on the first floor is accessible to everyone. No, it's only online. Everything should also be accessible to everyone.
[00:11:43] Speaker A: So yeah, yeah, it's. And just in advertising itself, I have seen some changes, right? So I think it's really interesting, and I guess I'm going to bring up TikTok again because I'm a plus size person, so I buy, I buy clothes for fat people, right? So when I go online, and I go to the shops that I like to buy from because I've trial and error find the clothes that I like, I understand their sizing, they're plus size models, and I just made air quotes if you're listening. Plus-size models are average-sized people. They're not skinny people, they're like size 14, size 16 people, which really is more average size than anything.
And so I see what a shirt looks like on somebody that still doesn't look like me.
But when I'm scrolling TikTok now, there are, and they're using average people; they're using actual TikTok.
Users buy and market the products and show how they look on real bodies. So I can say oh, I don't like how that dress looks on a person that looks like me or I do like how those pants look on a person that looks like me. And so I have a much better idea. And using regular everyday people to sell products has, I mean, I'm getting served up advertising all the time by users, not by TikTok ads, right? And the like sponsored content, that kind of thing or people that just have their, they just want to make some extra money on TikTok. So they're having a shop on there and showing these different things, and I'm like, I don't like that I'm constantly looking at advertisements, but I do think it's brilliant that they're using everyday people as influencers to show. And because I'm a plus-size person, I'm seeing a lot of that content, right? So I get to see what that looks like, and I think that's very, very interesting. The other thing, which is something Yoast has in their plugin, is the inclusive language. You can toggle on to make sure to check for inclusive language. When you look at advertising, especially around the holidays, it's very, very gender specific much of the time. So if there's a drill, it's very much geared towards getting this for a man, right? I live alone; guess what? I own two drills, right? Like, I am a woman, and I have tools.
But also if there's. They usually, and I've said this in many talks that I've given, vacuum cleaners are almost always exclusively marketed to women, right? So like, if you see somebody using a blender, it's a woman in a kitchen, not a man in a kitchen using a blender. But guess what? Men make smoothies, too, right? So like, there's the idea of better inclusiveness and, and language around that. Like for her and him. Like every. Anytime I see that something is for her. I understand they think they're being inclusive by saying, look, we have stuff for women too. But it just feels so gendered that I'm. I'm less likely to look at that. I will seek out the things I want, whether they're for her or him. Right. I mean, it doesn't matter.
I will say that when it comes to clothing, I like the feel of things tailored to a woman's body better for myself. But plenty of women prefer to shop in the men's section. So I understand that at some level, there is some gendering.
But I think that when we just present products as they are and don't try to shove them in a certain gendered way, maybe they'll do just fine.
[00:15:35] Speaker B: Yes, I agree with you 100%. It's people who think in our inclusive language feature, the analysis, people think it takes a lot of time. No, it's not. It's super easy. But it helps your SEO, it helps your contact massively. And I agree, I'm the one who's shopping in the men's section. I usually buy the T-shirts like. Yeah, when it's XL, it's kind of like somebody dressed on the beach, you know?
[00:16:03] Speaker A: Exactly.
[00:16:05] Speaker B: Yeah. But yeah, it's sometimes like this focus on, and as you said, even baking things or the things for females all the time have to be pink. I hate being colored. It's my favorite color in the world. But this target like this, we're living in 2024. We should stop doing that more to just focus on gender. This is for her, this is for him. And you only would let's target women here. No, you can target everyone. You don't have to be focusing on one specific market. If you open for another market, there are also chances for you to sell something.
[00:16:47] Speaker A: Yeah, none of my tools are pink.
They make pink tools for women. None of my tools. And if you if you're a woman and you absolutely love pink tools, more power to you. Go buy your pink tools. But I don't. I have a regular-sized hammer. It's not a dainty little pink hammer. Because when I want to pound a nail on my wall, I don't want to. Have to do it with eight strokes. I want to hit it with twice, and it goes where it belongs, you know, kind of thing. Let's get rid of the illusion that the only people who don't like pink tools that are women are lesbians because that's not true either. Like, I like regular tools, right? I like things that are not pink. I have nothing against pink, but I don't have a lot of pink. It's just, it's just. It is what it is. But.
Yeah, it's just, it's crazy. And, the one thing I was thinking of, one of the first things that I noticed when I'll be honest and say that I was one of the people that looked at the inclusive language before it was part of core, before people knew about it. I was asked to look at it and am super impressed with it. In the sample paragraph, they said that they had you try before you just like putting anything else in.
Said things like boys and girls. Right. And so it was like we used to hear all the time, boys and girls of all ages. Right. Kind of thing. But if you say children of all ages now, you have gone to the whole spectrum of gender as opposed to binary gender. And there's nothing wrong with saying children or students or those kinds of things. And you know, I don't hear as much at the beginning of a talk, ladies and gentlemen. It's like, you know, we've, we've started to remove gendered language from those places. Let's also take it out of advertising.
[00:18:33] Speaker B: Yeah, it's., I think you're talking about it now. I think maybe in the Netherlands. It's the Netherlands on the train. Usually, when they say ladies and gentlemen, they now say passengers when you go to the Trinity destination. I thought that was really cool. Like, yeah, we should. Yeah, it is like respecting everyone and making everyone feel welcome. Everyone's matters. Then, just make your message more general. And yeah, it's boys and girls, pink and blue. This is all my brain thinking now. Pink and blue. Yeah, it's, it's, it's. Yeah. Me, I don't like it. I love tools, but I'm really good at handy things. My husband is not well, he should be an engineer. He's the man I'm more handy with, in him, fixing things in the hand. He just destroyed it, you know, I just fix it.
[00:19:23] Speaker A: I've mentioned this before. This is a good one about gender too, is my daughter and her husband.
This is before they were married. This was probably four years ago or more. But they had a. They had a flat tire.
And so as they're driving, they had a flat tire. And so they pull off to the side of the road, and John asks her if we should call aaa. And she looked at him crazy and said, why would we call aaa?
And he says to change the tire. She says, don't you know how to change a tire? And he said no. Do you? She said yes. My mother wouldn't let me drive the car until I learned to change a tire. And so she taught him how to change a tire. Now, I will say that that was rooted in gender because it's not safe for a woman to be on the side of the road at night with a flat tire waiting.
You're sitting prey, right? And so I wanted to make sure that she had the ability to quickly change a tire on her and get back in the car and back on the road in a safe way. If she chooses to call triple A, she can do that. I gave her AAA also, because sometimes you can't solve a problem if your radiator has just exploded or something. But something as simple as a flat tire. I wanted her to understand how to do that one simple task. And I know how to do that one simple task. I don't know that I can still do it now, but I do know how to do it. So I taught her. And so she called me, like, they get back in the car, they're driving, and she calls me. She's like, get. And she tells me the whole story. He didn't know how to change a tire, so I just taught him how to do so. And so, like, let's. Let's remove gender from the ability to do something that used to be gendered tasks and doesn't have to be gendered tasks.
[00:21:11] Speaker B: So yeah, it's. It's still even now, like when you say like a company looking for a driver. Most of the applications will be mentioned, but sometimes some companies say, like, we encourage female candidates to apply, and that is like, full respect. They want to bring more diversity because there are a couple of jobs in the world. They always. It's printed in our head. When we grow up, around us, in the world, the driver, a man, a doctor, and mostly a man are not. The nurse is a woman. It's hard. You can see a nurseman, the handyman. It's not the handywoman, like the one fixing stuff in your house or the painter. It's always a man who's painting your house. It's never a woman.
[00:21:54] Speaker A: But.
[00:21:54] Speaker B: Yeah, but I also paint. My husband doesn't like to paint. I paint.
[00:22:00] Speaker A: See, let's remove gendering from advertising as much as possible.
So, yeah, I just think that if people take the time to think about the messaging they put out there, they will use inclusive language and inclusive photography. Right. so that it's not just a bunch of white people and that they.
They make sure that there's. Their sites are accessible not only with the technology that people can use to traverse their site using their keyboard but also with the descriptions being well-defined so that people who are blind or have low vision can understand what they're purchasing. I just think that those things are important, and I wanted us to bring that message today as you're preparing to sell things over the holidays and Black Friday and beyond. Right. Let's not only tie it to this time of year, but this is when we start to think about those things more.
That you are broadening your audience.
If you only do it to increase your sales, I'm still happy because you've made the web a more inclusive place. I would like it even better if you did it because you want to ensure that people are included. But I'll also accept it if you do it just for your bottom lines.
[00:23:24] Speaker B: I agree with you. And please check A11Y or A11Y or Ally for amazing projects and a lot of information. Everyone, as you said, works on accessibility on your websites.
[00:23:41] Speaker A: Absolutely. Awesome. Well, I don't know what we're talking about next week, but we will figure it out, and we'll come to you with something equal. I don't know if it was. To me, every topic is exciting. Maybe some people are like they just talked about marketing.
[00:23:55] Speaker B: But no, it was exciting today.
[00:23:58] Speaker A: It was exciting. Listen to them all. But we'll have something for you next week. Whatever it is, I hope that you all have a great week. Thanks. Bye, Samah. Bye.
[00:24:09] Speaker B: Bye.
[00:24:10] Speaker A: If you're interested in using our database, joining us as a guest for an episode, or just want to say hi, go to underrepresented in tech. See you next week.
