Episode Transcript
[00:00:00] Speaker A: Welcome to the underrepresented in tech podcast, where we talk about issues of underrepresentation and have difficult conversations. Underrepresented in tech is a free database with the goal of helping people find new opportunities in WordPress and tech.
Hello, Samah.
[00:00:18] Speaker B: Hello, Michelle. How are you?
[00:00:21] Speaker A: I'm very good. I like singing to you. It's fun.
[00:00:24] Speaker B: Yeah, the same. You're the same.
[00:00:27] Speaker A: It's a great way to start the day.
[00:00:29] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:00:31] Speaker A: Are you feeling better? I know that you have been, like, with COVID and everything else. Are you feeling better now?
[00:00:39] Speaker B: A little better. And also at the same time, the weather here changes every day. If you like the season, I will be fine. I'm just waiting for the next year's summer, so that's why I'm leaving.
[00:00:52] Speaker A: Nothing like just another eight months, and she'll be fine, I think, one year.
[00:00:57] Speaker B: Because we only have the summer from half of July until half of August, and that's it.
[00:01:01] Speaker A: Yeah, I understand.
[00:01:07] Speaker B: How is your preparation for WordCamp US?
[00:01:10] Speaker A: It's going very well. I finished my slides yesterday because, as you know, I'm now a speaker at WordCamp US. I'm very excited. I was a backup speaker. And it's actually a good story for our guest today because I'm going to, and I'll share it with you in a few minutes after we bring her in, because there was self-advocacy involved in my becoming a speaker for WordCamp US and my daughter, when I told her, I'm like, hey, I'm speaking at WordCamp US. Her response was, your self-advocacy paid off, Mom. And I was like, yeah, well, I have to tell Shailvi that now. And speaking of Shailvi, we do have our guest with us today, Shailvi Wakhlu. Welcome to underrepresented tech.
[00:01:53] Speaker C: Thank you so much for having me. So excited to be here with both of you.
[00:01:57] Speaker A: We're excited to have you as well. And I love when people reach out to us and say, hey, I think I have a lot to contribute, and I would love to share through your podcast because we are all about underrepresentation and what that means. Self-advocacy is also important for underrepresented groups. It's important for everybody. But underrepresented groups, we seem to have to fight harder and longer for all the things that we desire and actually deserve as well. Right. For things that are equitable and things like that.
So, yeah, so welcome. Excited. You wrote a book called Self-Advocacy, your guide to getting what you deserve at work.
And I leafed through it quickly because I just downloaded it last night, in case anybody's like, oh, Michelle must know everything about this book yet. No, but I think that just by having looked through it quickly, you can apply this to more than work as well. But there are definitely some chapters focused on asking for promotions, negotiating salary, and other things like that. The first part of the book is really about self-advocacy. Why is it important? How do you do it? So, wow. I'm excited that we have an expert on our premises in our podcast today. So, thanks for joining us. So tell us a little bit about yourself, though. I'm talking.
[00:03:19] Speaker C: Yeah. No, I'm so grateful to be here. As you said, I think underrepresented in tech; it describes me as well. I am a woman of color in a tech position. I think I've been in rooms my entire career where I was the first or the only, and in some cases, both. And so, yeah, so my name is Shailvi. I have been in tech for almost 17 years at this point.
By day, my profession is in the data field. I was a data executive for many years, and just over the last year, I started working for myself as a data consultant and also as a self-advocacy consultant, which is the stuff that I do based on my book.
[00:04:00] Speaker A: I love that. Well, let me tell you my little story, and you can tell me if you think it was self-advocacy.
So, like many people, I applied to speak at WordCamp US. From what I understand, there were a lot of applications this year.
And after a while, I started to see people say, oh, I got picked to speak at WordCamp US. And then other people reached out to me and said, oh, my talk wasn't selected. And still, I had heard nothing. And so I waited almost a week, and still, I had heard nothing. So I went, and I sent a direct message to somebody on the team there. And I said, if I haven't heard anything, does that mean I haven't been selected? And they said, well, let me check. I don't have an application for you. And I said, but I did apply. Then they checked even further and said, oh, we got your application, but it was just your name, nothing else, which was interesting because they were all required fields. So where did that information go? How did I submit it? But I had taken screenshots of everything before I hit submit. And so I said, well, these are the talks I had submitted. Let me show you. They came back and said they would love to have you as a backup speaker since the schedule is already out. And, of course, I understood that. I was incredibly disappointed, of course, that I wasn't selected, but, you know, whatever. And then last week, they said, we have somebody who's unable to make it. So, if you're ready, we would love to have you speak at WordCamp US. And so that's when I told my daughter I had been selected, and she said, your self-advocacy paid off because I wasn't willing to just say, oh, okay, no problem, and walk away. But to say, this is what I submitted, and this is, if there's any place for me to speak, this is what I would like to talk about. And so this is a little example of it because normally I'd be like, oh, well, okay. But I didn't want to let down this time because I had purposely not organized the event this year so that I could apply to speak. And so not even having been considered was very disappointing.
[00:06:04] Speaker C: Yeah, but it worked out great. I mean, I think. I think anytime you do anything that is in the best interest of your career, that is self-advocacy. So, I love this story, and I love this example.
[00:06:16] Speaker A: It paid off because I'm speaking next week.
[00:06:22] Speaker B: Shailvi, your book on self-advocacy has become a bestseller. I want to know, why do you believe self-advocacy is crucial today in the professional world, practically for women and practically for all the underrepresented in tech.
[00:06:39] Speaker C: Yeah.
First, I'll just say that it's been mind-blowing to me that it was a topic that I just randomly started talking about many years ago, and the response I got from all the people who attended the first talk that I ever gave and some of the successive talks that I gave was so wild. And it's always been clear to me that self-advocacy is something that. I think we mentioned that it is something that, almost by design, tends to matter more to people who are underrepresented. I mean, here we're talking about tech, but I think it can be in any field that when you don't have people who look like you or share experiences with you, it is harder to see examples of success. And so you are almost dying on your own path to success. And that requires a lot of intentionality. That requires you to try to take more control of your outcomes because you have fewer people to rely on who might help you. After all, you remind them of themselves, maybe when they were younger. So I think. I think, to your point, it's a skill that I think is not just important today. I think it's important all the time. Oddly enough, I was educated in technology. There was no class that taught me how to negotiate. There was no program that taught me how to speak up for myself or how to even position myself in a good light on a daily basis. So, I do think it's a crucial skill because it is something that interns need. It is something that CEOs need. It's never something that you're never done with self-advocacy. That's why I'm very grateful to people who care about this topic; I think it's relevant.
[00:08:25] Speaker A: Absolutely. I think that so many people in tech, especially, are introverted. And then you add on top of that underrepresentation, and it feels hard to say what you want and advocate for what you want and need in your life. How do you help somebody who is introverted? And the thought of it feels confrontational. It feels confrontational to ask for a raise. It feels confrontational to ask for a promotion, but it's not. And, like, no offense to the white men in the world, but white men don't ever think it's confrontational. And they like, yep, I'm going just to go ask for that. So how do you get over that feeling of, I don't want to cause a problem by asking for what I need?
[00:09:12] Speaker C: Yeah, I think it's valid. I think it's a valid thing that, you know, people think about. Because if you have not encountered a situation before, if, you know, it's a very rare occurrence for you to have to do something by design, you don't have practice doing it. So, it is inherently hard to get your mind wrapped around. Wrapped around how to do it. And I would say that one of the things that I say is that even for people who are introverted, and just to be clear, extroverted people may have a really hard time for completely different reasons.
[00:09:45] Speaker A: Absolutely.
[00:09:47] Speaker C: But I think practice is the piece that makes a difference. If you have had situations where you had no other choice but to advocate for yourself, even if you didn't get the outcome you wanted, it is still something that added to you because now you have practice. Now you know what didn't work last time, and next time, you'll be able to iterate on your messaging. And, you know, I think I was listening to one of your episodes. There was a reference to language learning and Duolingo and all of those things. So I often give that example that there are so many things that can inherently feel sort of like difficult or conflict, like, when you're talking to somebody in a language that they know very well and you don't know for the first time, that can feel. That can feel quiet.
It can feel quite overwhelming. But eventually, you know that millions of people in this world have learned a new language and become successful at it. And if they can do it, so can you. So if your why is clear, you know, bringing that back to self-advocacy, why do I need to advocate for myself? When you see that very, very clearly, then you can almost gamify it. You can almost say, like, how do I reverse engineer, uh, figuring out the steps I need to take to better advocate for myself? And it is very much a teachable skill, for sure.
[00:11:14] Speaker A: Why do you think it's easier to advocate for others than yourself? Sometimes?
[00:11:19] Speaker C: Yeah, that's pretty common. I think. I think when you're advocating for somebody else, it inherently feels like a less selfish thing to do. Because I think a lot of tags with self-advocacy are about selfishness. Oh, if I ask for a raise, that's selfish, or if I, you know, point out that I'm doing a great job and my boss is not noticing that selfish. And so I think that is the mindset that people have. I always say that one, even advocating for others, teaches you the message that works, teaches you the way to speak to people's emotions successfully, or draws attention to the facts in a way that inspires action. And so I think it's a great way to if people are uncomfortable advocating for themselves, but they have it easier advocating for someone else. I still think that I can help you. If you're advocating for a group, some of those outcomes will still help you.
[00:12:27] Speaker A: Nice.
[00:12:29] Speaker B: I was checking about your website, and you spoke at 100 global conference conferences. It was really impressive to meet people from your talk.
And what was the most common issue around self-advocacy? I know we talked about it a bit before, and I know you said it can be done through training. Yeah, how can you do the training? Also, I know you started your YouTube channel, the 1-minute Yes, to teach people how to do it.
Is it the only thing people now, as you said earlier, like to start, to start training? Do you come over to it? Because I know a lot of people. As Michelle also said, it's difficult to stand up yourself. When you stand up for someone else or talk about someone else, it's much easier. And the training, how do you start? Or are there other issues, such as whether you should also work on them or just focus on them?
[00:13:36] Speaker C: Yeah, I think from my experience outside of the conferences that I've spoken at or other events that I've done, I have also coached individuals. So, I have had a chance to speak to individuals. In some cases, it's recurring. Like, I've spoken to them multiple times. And I do feel that. I feel confident in the fact that there are, like, many examples of people who started from a space where they were. They found it very difficult just to speak up. Like, even the simple thing their manager asks them, what are you working on? And they'll respond with, oh, nothing, nothing, nothing super important.
And, you know, inherently, that answer is not helpful to you. You know, inherently, that underplaying the value that you add is not good for you. And so how do you switch from, you know, oh, I'm not working on anything important? Here's what I worked on, and I elaborate more on it.
It's such simple things like this. So I do feel that I have a lot of examples of people who have started their journey from a very, very sort of early stage and then moved on to get better at it. And I have people who have told me that, hey, I was so nervous about x, y, and z, and five months later, I have that promotion that I want, or I'm getting more opportunities from my boss, or I'm showing up in a more relevant light. So I do think that's one of the things that is common. The most common trend I've heard is that the people who come to me for coaching are intentional about it. But people who hear me at a conference, many of them come and say, oh, I'd never thought about self-advocacy, but everything that you said, all the examples you gave resonated with me, and I'm wondering why I never thought about it. So, you know, that's. That's pretty cool, in a way, that at least you get people to think about it.
[00:15:35] Speaker A: It is, for sure. And it also makes me think, you know, there. There are things you grow up with, and you think that can't be taught. Like, somebody can't be taught to be confident, you know, because you either are or you aren't. But that's not entirely true, is it? You can be coached into some of those things.
[00:15:50] Speaker C: Oh. Absolutely. Like, I, you know, even the confidence, like, part of confidence is just, again, you have done it before, so hence, you know, what to expect and that those butterflies in your stomach that you were getting earlier, like, they go away after a while. I often share this with people, saying that if you had met me even five years ago, I would have been a very different person. I've always been an extrovert. I've always been very good on stage. But I am inherently a very shy person. And I know it's hard to reconcile extroversion with shyness, but it is true. Like, I am energized by people, but I'm also afraid of them in those, you know, one-on-one sort of settings. So I do think that it is trainable. And if you break it down to, you know, the little bit of the science and the little bit of the art that is to it, I think it gives people that reassurance that I can try this and see how it goes and try it on for size and then tweak. Tweak accordingly.
[00:16:49] Speaker A: Absolutely. Do you think that there's? I think in my. In my case, sometimes I think of advocating for others, and then I try to put myself as the other. So, for example, I think of those, like, I was a single mom raising a daughter and putting myself through school, and that girl deserves the things I want to have in my life now. So, if I can't advocate for myself, I can advocate for her, even though she's me. Does that make sense? Yeah, that does.
[00:17:19] Speaker B: That's a nice one. Yeah. Me, I still have issues that I'm. I also do some practice. I noticed myself in the last six months. I'm speaking up more for myself, and for others I can fight for. Like, I'm, like, I will go the extra mile for a lot of people, but for me, and even asking for promotion or extra money at work, I, coming from culture, it's unpolite to ask for it for money. So it takes me a lot of courage to break and start talking like, yeah, I deserve more money. I'm doing this and this, and it's awesome that. Yeah, I mean, I'm taking baby steps, and hopefully, one day, I can do it for myself fully.
[00:18:03] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:18:03] Speaker C: Yeah. And, you know. I think that you know, even that I love that framing that, you know, you're. You're doing it for yourself but think of yourself as that other. Like, I always encourage people, when you're writing your performance review, for example, to write it in as if you're not writing it. Your best friend is writing it, you know because your best friend is never going to underplay your achievements. Your best friend is never going to say, like, oh, this was no big deal. Your best friend will say, like, this was this awesome thing that my friend did. So, if that makes it easier for you to switch out that voice, go for it.
[00:18:38] Speaker A: Yeah.
So I know, like, I'm looking at the chapters of your book, and there's, you know, creating, setting goals, measuring success, self-gratitude. So, tell us a little bit about what self-gratitude means in your book.
[00:18:54] Speaker C: Yeah, yeah. So I'm a person who strongly believes that. When you express gratitude regularly, you clarify what I mean; just expressing gratitude is nice. Like, it makes you feel nicer because it reminds you of all the things that are going well or, you know, maybe you haven't reached the outcome that you wanted, but just the fact that you tried, just the fact that you were intentional, just the fact that you prioritized it, that is still something to celebrate. So I think the more you thank yourself for making an effort, the more you thank the universe for the things that did end up going your way, and the more you also register intentionally that, hey, my colleague helped me out on this, and that helped me get a goal that I want. I think it just draws your attention to the things that benefit you. It draws your attention to the things that you want. So self-gratitude as a practice, you know, it may sound like, oh, this is just a sort of a, you know, wild, big thing, but it does add, it does register in your brain as something that you should, that you should be caring about, that you should be thinking about. You seek out more of the things you want in your life because you are reminding yourself that this brings you joy and satisfaction.
[00:20:15] Speaker A: Absolutely.
Very cool.
So the other question I had, and it left very briefly, but now it's back, is when women self-advocate and when women have that level of confidence to be able to go after the things they want, we often get labeled as a bitch or other words, to put it quite bluntly. How do you navigate that part of it? So, do I just remove it from self-talk? Do I not care? Do I embrace it and own it? Like, yes, I am a bad bitch, botch, whatever the words they use. Now, how do you navigate over those kinds of, you know, just the fact that it happens?
[00:21:01] Speaker C: Yeah, I think it's interesting because there will always be some people who will think of you as aggressive or bitchy, no matter how nice you are, no matter how polite you are, like. And I think if people just sort of embrace that, that there are going to be some people who you can never, ever please, like, that is just so free yourself of that expectation that I'm going to be able to please everybody all the time. If we set the stage with that, it would help people. I think about the other part.
I find it a useful exercise to at least reflect back. And again, I think women might overcorrect on this. So I want to say I'm not saying it because I want women always to think about what they say and how they say it. But I do think that if you switch the emotion up from, you know, let's say, let's take that example of I want a promotion, and I'm upset that I didn't get one. If you go in with the emotion that I'm upset, I didn't get something, or I'm upset that somebody else got it and, like, my manager overlooked me. If you enter with that emotion, it is more likely that your words will sort of, you know, come out in a way that is maybe not even constructive to your cause. Like, again, I don't care if people consider you aggressive in that scenario, but it is more about it may not get you what you want, but if you switch it up and say that, okay, leave aside that I'm upset about something. Still, I want to understand what I need to do to get a promotion in the future. I want to make sure that I understand what is required regarding my performance so that I can be seen as being set up for promotion. So, if you frame it as I want to ask for help, and I want to ask for clarity, I think it's a different emotion that you're entering that conversation with, and it is more likely to have the outcome you want because you can be upset. You're 100% allowed to be upset, but that is not what you're focusing on. You're focusing on the next steps. You are focusing on ensuring that your manager understands that you want a promotion, that you care about it, and that you would like their help. So I think that is sort of my advice that I do think it helps just to take a step back and say, what is the most constructive way that I can show up? But you know what? Everybody has emotions. Like, it's not just women.
We've seen plenty of examples of men having emotions, but I think it's fair. I think, eventually, you will have things that rub people the wrong way. Maybe you've said it nicely, and they're still upset about it. It doesn't matter. Ultimately, you are on your journey. You're trying to get what you want.
[00:23:59] Speaker A: Yeah, I've heard this said that they say that women are emotional, but we're not the ones punching holes in walls when we get upset.
[00:24:09] Speaker B: Right.
[00:24:11] Speaker C: That's true.
[00:24:12] Speaker A: I mean, if you're listening right now, whoever you are out there, we're not suggesting that all men punch holes in walls. That is not what we're suggesting. But of all the holes punched into walls, the majority of them came from a male fist, unable to.
Yeah, somehow. What questions do you have?
[00:24:34] Speaker B: Me? I have a slightly different question. It is like not to talk about your book. I want to know.
I was reading about you. You say that you grew up in India and moved to the US.
What advice would you give to women or people who are underrepresented in tech to break into leadership rules? You have a very impressive career and are a very successful woman. What kind of advice can you share with them? Is it just focusing on self-advocacy? What else would you like to advise them?
[00:25:15] Speaker C: Yeah. No, thank you. Thank you so much. Looking back at my career journey, I sometimes try to sift through what happened because I was in the right place, at the right time, and what was I intentional about? And I would say that sometimes I think that even some things that just happened, like luck, are huge elements, like being in a position where you could go after an increased opportunity in a manner that matters. But I would say that I think a few years ago, probably around the time that I started focusing on self-advocacy, I felt that need. I called it like I want the reins of my career in my own hands. I don't want somebody else. I don't want to rely on a great manager or a good company to make sure I get to where I want to go. I want to sort of chart out that path. So, regarding the leadership focus, I think I'd been in multiple management positions, and at that time, I had that thing that I should still stay in touch with the technical side. So, I'm a coder. Like I was an engineer, I was in data, and I felt that I had to keep my coding skills very sharp. So, even though I was a manager, I was still coding regularly.
Then, I started identifying who the people ahead of me were and that I would want to have similar career paths in some cases. Some of those people I just reached out to and they were open to talking to me. So, you know, that was an act of self-advocacy, just reaching out to people and asking if they were open to sharing their experience. And even though I didn't end up following the same path, I built out my own path. But just hearing people's stories, I think, is super valuable. And, you know, your podcast, I think you share so many people's stories that are so valuable to people. So I am very much in awe of the information you and others like you can provide. As I said earlier, so many people cannot find mentors in this industry because they have fewer people who look like them and are ahead of them. That's why I think these podcasts serve a huge purpose: You can get access to somebody across the world who's doing something that you consider cool. I, for example, have never had a female manager. Somehow, in 17 years, in five companies, I had 16 managers, and not a single one was female.
I have had teams. My last team was 50 50 in terms of gender representation. So I have hired tons of women, but I have never had that for myself. So I think it does take quite a lot of intentionality. I would say that only five years ago did I actually start mapping out what I want to do, how I get to department leadership roles, and what I need as a signal before that to be eligible for those department leadership roles.
[00:28:33] Speaker A: I have removed the word luck from my history for a reason. I was dating a man last year, and I was saying that I would be going to the places I get to travel to. And he said, man, you're so lucky. And I said, no, luck had nothing to do with it. I have worked very hard to be where I am today, and a lot of that was self-advocacy. Right? And so. So, yes, of course, there's always an element of luck in being in the right place and time, but you sometimes navigate yourself to those places as well. And so I think, you know, you ask for those things, and even if it's like the secret I'm putting it out to the universe, sometimes things come together. But yes, I acknowledge that there is sometimes luck in things, but, yeah, man, when someone. Somebody says to me, you take really good pictures. You must have a good camera. And I say, well, you're a really good writer. You must have a good laptop. I mean, that's the same idea, right?
[00:29:33] Speaker B: You're good at it. So, yeah.
[00:29:36] Speaker A: So, yeah. So, yes, it takes a little bit of luck, but it takes a lot of work to get to where we are and what we deserve. For sure. For sure.
[00:29:44] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:29:45] Speaker A: Awesome. Well, are there any last parting ideas, thoughts, or things you wanted to share that we didn't ask you about? Perhaps we will include a link to your book in the show notes. So, you can click through if anybody's interested in reading self-advocacy or a guide to getting what you deserve at work. It's available on Amazon. That's where I found it. It went into my Kindle, and I shall read it soon. But is there anything else, Shailvi, that you wanted to talk about or share?
[00:30:12] Speaker C: No. I think. I think this was a wonderful conversation, and I would say that for anybody who is. Who is listening to this episode? I hope they identify what they want out of their career. Like, I think. I think that part is just being clear about your intentions and goals. And I think once you pick those intentions, the motivation to get all the skills that you need, you know, soft skills, technical skills, all of those to get to that outcome, I think it makes it much easier. So I hope everybody listening feels inspired to go after whatever they deserve because they've earned it.
[00:30:53] Speaker A: Yeah. They don't have to do it alone. They can find coaches that will help them or friends that will mirror you and those kinds of things. I think. I agree 100%. Go after the things you deserve. You have earned them. So thank you. Any last thoughts, Samah?
[00:31:10] Speaker B: Not at all. I just want to say something to follow you on YouTube because, like me, I just watched a few videos, which I think is nice. I will buy the book. I will read it. That something is on my plan to work myself this year. So. Yeah. And I don't know. I hope to see you one day. Real life, like one day.
[00:31:34] Speaker C: Yeah.
[00:31:34] Speaker B: Speaking at any conference, if you are in Europe or somewhere to catch you somewhere else.
[00:31:40] Speaker C: Yeah, I am a huge europhile. So I will see you in your nice.
[00:31:46] Speaker B: That will be nice.
[00:31:49] Speaker A: Awesome. Well, we'll put your website, your book, all of the things, and your YouTube channel so that people can follow. We'll put that all in the show notes. Thank you so much for sharing with us today. I appreciate your self-advocacy and reaching out and saying, hey, I want to be on your podcast. So it's paid off for us for sure. And I hope that you've enjoyed your time here today.
[00:32:08] Speaker C: No, for me as well. So I appreciate both of you having me. Thank you so much. This was super nice.
[00:32:14] Speaker A: It's our pleasure. Just a quick note: we will not be recording next week, so that we will have this episode this week. There will not be one next week because of Wordcampus. We'll be back the week after. So, everybody, thanks for listening, and we'll see you on the next episode about underrepresented people in tech. Thank you.
[00:32:32] Speaker B: Bye-bye.
[00:32:34] Speaker A: If you're interested in using our database, joining us as a guest for an episode, or just saying hi, go to underrepresented in tech.com. See you next week.
