Episode Transcript
[00:00:00] Speaker A: Welcome to the underrepresented in tech podcast, where we talk about issues of underrepresentation and have difficult conversations. Underrepresented in tech is a free database with the goal of helping people find new opportunities in WordPress and tech.
Hello, Samah.
[00:00:22] Speaker B: Hello, Michelle.
[00:00:25] Speaker A: I'm good, but you're looking ducky today.
[00:00:28] Speaker B: Yeah.
I have a lovely friend, Michelle, and I love her so much. Her name is Michelle. She sent me those lovely ones from WordCamp US. I don't know if you can see, but there's a small ducky and a big ducky. She gave them to my lovely manager, friend, and colleague Taco. Taco brought them for me, so I'm really happy about them. They give me joy.
[00:00:53] Speaker A: I, messaged him before Wordcampus, and I said, would you have room in your suitcase to bring back a tiny package to Samah? And he said yes. And then two minutes later, he says, it's nothing illegal, is it? I'm like, it's me you're talking about. Like, I've probably driven faster than the speed limit, but I think that's the only law I've ever broken. Right?
[00:01:16] Speaker B: He was talking more about me.
[00:01:20] Speaker A: So I said it's just. It's just like a couple of pairs of earrings. And when we were in Europe this year, you told me how much. Before that, you told me how much you liked rubber ducks. And if you're listening to the podcast and not watching, she's wearing giant rubber ducks. Well, not giant, but rubber ducks hanging from her ears. And then there are little studs that look like rubber ducks; they're not natural diamonds.
[00:01:42] Speaker B: I'm sorry to tell you, they are worth more for me than real diamonds because you thought about me and me, and they cross the ocean, they travel to reach me. I'm really happy.
[00:01:54] Speaker A: So, yeah, so glad. So I handed him, I said, I promise it's a small package. I didn't. It's like, you know, isn't sending something so large you'd have to figure out how to fit it in a suitcase? And then he pulls out Stroop waffles for me. So I haven't, I haven't dug into them yet. I'm waiting till this weekend. I have some moments of zen with coffee and a Stroop waffle. So thank you also for the gift. My glass is so warm here; my glasses keep fogging up.
Anyway, we are going to avoid WP drama today because it doesn't serve us and what we're doing. I mean, there's probably at some point we can talk about how it might affect underrepresented people, what's going on with WordPress, etcetera. But I think you agree we want to wait until things play out more to have any discussion about that. Instead, you and I have been talking back channel, not in a recorded way, about reproductive freedom and how that affects women.
And before anybody says, "I thought this was underrepresented in tech," yes, women are in tech. We have news for you. And so women's issues affect women in tech also.
[00:03:05] Speaker B: Definitely.
[00:03:06] Speaker A: Yeah. But when we talk about women's reproductive systems and when we talk about women's reproductive rights, that does affect women everywhere, and it affects us sitting at our desks daily. So before we even talk about children and childbirth, I want to talk about menstruation. We have mentioned it in the past, but I was one of those people. Luckily, I'm in menopause now, so I don't have periods anymore.
For you gentlemen listening who might have just turned off your thing, women have periods. We're so sorry to tell you that, but it's just part of life. Anyway, I was one of those women who would get cramps so badly that I would sometimes pass out, like, literally faint from the pain, and also sometimes miss work because I couldn't even stand up to be able to walk it to my car and drive to work.
And I lived with that because we were told that's just what happens. And I'm really happy to hear doctors saying, now, number one, that's not normal, but also, number two, that's not okay. And finding solutions, where possible, for women to not have to have two to three days of pain and sometimes more. Right? But for me, it was those two to three initial days that were just in my back, in my abdomen, like, everywhere. Just agony. Right? Not to mention headaches and other things that come with it. And when you're not feeling well, you're also not hydrating. So, like, it just ends up with all of these other problems. But, you know, I don't know where I read it. TikTok read it. Some story somewhere about a man, a boss said to a woman, why do you have that heating pad? Or it was either a heating pad or a hot water bottle. And she's like, I've got really bad cramps. And he's like, that's not acceptable in the workplace. You can't have that here.
She said I can't have something lying across my lap that will help me be here and get my job done. No, that's gross.
But if that same person had pulled a muscle in their back and had a hot water bottle or heating pad on their back, nobody says, oh, that's gross, because it doesn't make them think of blood and things, other things.
So just first blush, before we even talk about decisions until, you know, having children, et cetera, I just want to say, women's bodies do things usually. They do things naturally. And you, whether you're comfortable with it or not, you have to accept that we have to deal with this for a considerable part of our lives. 40 years, maybe. I don't know more than that for some of us. And that is just a fact of life, that we must deal with. Yes, there are things that we can do. When I was 14 years old, I was put on birth control even though I had no idea what sex was or any inclination to have sex in my teens.
And, yes, that makes me weird, I think, by today's standards. But anyway.
But I was on birth control to try to help control the pain that I was in. I think it was dysmenorrhea; I think it is the actual name for it.
There are things that we can do, but they are not without consequences. So, having a 14-year-old put on hormonal therapy because she has pain every month is not necessarily healthy for a 14-year-old's body right now. Yes, sometimes 14-year-olds are on that for birth control. I'm not saying that that's not okay. Of course, it's okay. You and your doctor discuss what's right for you.
But we have to make it okay to discuss these topics. We have to make it okay to address them in the workplace. We must acknowledge that if a woman is so cramped and in so much discomfort, she's. Even if she's not potentially passing out, if we're in so much pain, it will affect our work output and our productivity because it's impossible to be in that much pain and still think and act like you're not. So, I just wanted to get that out. First thoughts?
[00:07:27] Speaker B: I agree with you. I also.
With the. With the period, it is like you go through all of this rollercoaster of emotions, and also, at the same time, you need to explain to people that where I grew up, it's taboo. We don't talk about periods with other men. Not allowed. Even with other women. Like you say, like, I'm excused like this excuse. I cannot do a lot of things. But I think it's like, yeah, we should talk about all of it. All those things because this is from things to start, our topic today is the consumption of pills; I don't know if anyone read the side effects. They're really scary as hell. So it's. And we keep taking them. You took them for medical purposes. Me too, because I was feeling the same way. Feeling sick.
Of course, in some places worldwide, you have two days per month from the government if you're having those sick leaves. Sometimes you don't. Yeah.
Sometimes you don't. Yeah. But, yeah. Our topic today is why more and more women.
I don't. How can I say it? Why are more women choosing not to have kids? Or they. The numbers are getting higher; I think in 2030, a study shows that there are more than 50 to 52 women around the world and they will not have kids. And in recent years, more and more women are choosing not to have kids because of the career, financial support, and also the lifestyle that they choose. If you want to talk about the career, we all know women in their twenties and thirties. This is the peak of your hard work career. And we, as women, have a ticking clock for us. It's not like women we know in their twenties; it's so easy to get pregnant. The beginning of 30 is difficult, and the end of year 30 is technically possible. Not all of us. Halle Berry, we're going to get pregnant at 47 years old. We cannot do that. And also, we're not like Al Pacino; we're not mentioned. We can have kids at 82, which means they have that quality. We don't have it. So the window to have it is in our twenties and early thirties.
[00:09:52] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:09:52] Speaker B: I chose to live a life, to study, to travel, to work, to be in different countries. And when I push a little bit, having kids in life causes me a problem. But the doctors also kind of humiliated me that I chose late in life to have kids. I still remember when I was 35, the doctor looked at the clock and told me, like this, tick, tick, tick. And me, like, how bitch. Yeah, I want to say that. And now we can say it's our podcast.
[00:10:33] Speaker A: We can say whatever we want on our podcast.
[00:10:35] Speaker B: Thank you. Yeah, it is horrible. And I spent four years of my life taking hormonal medication.
I gained weight. It gave me a lot of issues. My brain was not thinking straight. I was taking two needles, like 300 millimeters a day, and that day and pills here, pills there. And no one from the doctors told me why. I cannot honestly get pregnant. There's no reason. It just didn't happen. Because it is not happening. So I decided to stop. I decided to postpone having kids. Last month, I've been focusing on my health and being happy for the last four years; sometimes I wonder why I went through this. I don't know why, from the beginning of my thirties, one of the people said, I don't want to have kids, maybe one day. And when I decided that nature, let's say, didn't let it go easy. But I also want to work in my career and travel to the world. I also have financial reasons because of the power we have now to choose it. I can choose what I want from my body. And a lot of people don't accept it, because if you took 50 years ago, you have to get married, you have to have kids. This is what they taught us: that our life should be and not behind being a housewife or only staying. Of course, if you want to have kids, if you want to have a stay-at-home, you don't want to work. I fully support you.
[00:12:07] Speaker A: Absolutely. The whole idea behind women's rights to choose so many women, at least I'm going to speak my perspective, is a very American perspective. That's where I live. That's what I know. And when conservative right-wing Republicans hear you say that you want women to have reproductive freedom and that you're a feminist, they automatically assume that that means you don't think women should have the right to be stay-at-home moms and housewives, and no, actually, it's the opposite. I'm a feminist because I think you have the right to do that. And nobody should force you into a career, just like nobody should force me to be a stay-at-home mom, right? To be a housewife. And so I just want to say that right away. Right. It works in both directions. We, like you just said, fully support you. If that's your life's goal and what makes you happy, go for it. Nothing makes me happier than women doing what fulfills their lives. And if that's what fulfills you, but that doesn't give you the right to, then turn around and judge me for wanting to have a career. Right? So it goes both ways.
I think that just like I said, it's okay to talk about periods, it's okay to talk about menstruation, it's okay to say, I need a day, I'm not feeling well, I'm vomiting because I'm having such bad period pain, whatever. But it's still not okay to ask women what their choices are along those lines. So, I became a mother at 23 years old. I was a single mother all my life. People have assumed that that's just because I was sleeping around. I wasn't sleeping around. Although if you sleep with, I don't care if you sleep with a thousand men, that's your body; do what you want with it. I'm not shaming women, but this was the nineties, and I was judged a lot.
But I was raped, and I became pregnant because my daughter was.
And I know that's going to shock a lot of people. They hear that. I can imagine all the right now that people say, I've had 30. People are always like, I'm so sorry. Well, I've had 33 years to deal with it. I'm perfectly fine talking about it. I know that it shocks other people. However, I was pregnant, and I chose to keep my baby because I had a choice. I could have had an abortion. It was perfectly legal. It still is in my state, thank goodness.
It's not true of all of our states and countries. But I had a choice, and I made the right choice for myself and decided that if that was the way I was going to become a mother, that was the way I was going to become a mother. I never had another opportunity to have children. I never was with somebody at the right time in my life to be able to have another child. And so, that's how I became a mom, and that's the only child I've ever had.
My daughter's biracial is not a secret, either. If you've seen us, you know my daughter is not white like me. Right?
And right from the time that she was born and I was walking around with this biracial child, I was asked questions like, how old was she when you adopted her?
Because people assume that white women have to have white babies, that is also not true. And so the first time it ever happened to me was at church, and I was just so dumb that somebody would ask that. And I just literally looked at this woman and said, she came out of my vagina.
[00:15:32] Speaker B: I'm sorry.
It's nice, she replied.
[00:15:36] Speaker A: Woman's face was just like, she didn't know what to say. Right. I'm like, well, that'll teach her.
Yeah, but by the same token of not asking somebody, like, how old their child was when you adopted them, don't assume that. Right? Don't assume that their child is a dad. Don't assume they're not adopted. Like, whatever.
It's also not okay to say to a woman, "Aren't you getting a little old?" Why aren't you having kids yet? Or haven't? How come you don't have children? Or when are you having children?
Because to somebody like you who has dealt with infertility and dealt with wanting to have children and not having that come true, that is an incredibly painful question to hear.
[00:16:13] Speaker B: Absolutely. Absolutely. It's soul-crushing. I cried in the office a lot. In the bathroom, I cried a lot. And people sometimes come, and maybe, shockingly, women ask me more than men. Men, they asked me, " Oh, do you want to have kids? I say, maybe they won't ever ask you again. Women start asking you, or they tell you, like, oh, you look at that boy, he's pregnant. I wish it were you. It's hurtful because you identify my whole existence as a human being, as a woman, if I'm successful in life, if I want to have kids or nothing. And, and that is, sometimes it's, it is, it's not okay to see me as a person because maybe I can have a kid and maybe my, or, or not. It's my choice in life.
[00:17:03] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:17:03] Speaker B: And, yeah, don't shame me. I'm not, listen, as a woman, if I, if I don't, if I'm, if I don't have kids. Yeah, yeah.
[00:17:11] Speaker A: And one thing I've learned is just not to ask that question. Right. Just, you don't ask it. And you and I have had conversations, and you have been open with me, and I still have never even asked you. And I'm not asking you now, so you don't have to answer. But I've never even asked you. Well, if you can't have kids, will you adopt? Because it's not my business.
[00:17:28] Speaker B: Yeah, if you want me to know.
[00:17:30] Speaker A: That, you'll tell me. Like, that's definitely.
[00:17:33] Speaker B: Yeah. The thing is, even with adoption like that, is that what I was thinking about it? In our twenties, thirties, careers, and financial culture,
I am; I'm not white.
That's a secret.
[00:17:47] Speaker A: No.
[00:17:48] Speaker B: My husband and I are white people. So, having a mixed-color kid is going to be very difficult in my culture, and where I'm living now in the Netherlands, I look at my kids as not being accepted entirely by both cultures. I will be honest. At the same time, I feel the world is so crazy. A lot of war is happening everywhere, and it is so crazy. And sometimes that was a message, I don't know, from a higher power. Don't bring kids. Don't let them suffer. It is all of it, also, at the same time. And maybe I'm selfish. I love my life the way it is now. I can now grab my suitcase and travel to Paris if I want.
I'm going to work with my husband in Congo next month. If he travels in five months to Uganda or the Philippines, I can easily join him. Sometimes, I also think I love my life the way it is. I can do whatever I want.
Yeah, that's. That's also the reason it's going to be a national podcast.
[00:18:55] Speaker A: I know we were crying beforehand, talking about the things we're going to talk about because we're allowed to have emotions, too, about all of these things, for sure. My daughter has been told, you know, she's not a white, white woman. So she's been asked if she's Italian, she's been asked if she's Hispanic, and she's been asked if she's black. First of all, that's also. Nobody's. Nobody's right to have that information unless she shares it. She does share that. She's a proud black woman.
She's also been told by the black community that she's not black enough.
[00:19:26] Speaker B: Oh, yeah.
[00:19:27] Speaker A: Yeah. Right. Because she's a light-skinned. Because she's passing in some respects. Right. And I use air quotes for that passing because nobody should have to pass for anything. You just be who you are and be accepted. That's. But it's. It's not easy, right? In our society. She's not black enough, she's not white enough, and she's fucking amazing. Excuse my language, but she's just. Who she is is just amazing, regardless. And because of. Right. So, like, it's. Both can be true. The color of her skin has nothing to do with how amazing she is, and it does have something to do with how amazing she is because it's made her the person she is and the activist she is. And, yeah, okay. I could brag about my kid forever so that we won't do that.
[00:20:07] Speaker B: And she's awesome. I admitted. I admitted one year ago she's an awesome person.
[00:20:11] Speaker A: She is. But shortly after she was married, about four months later, she came over and said, I want to tell you something, Mom. And I said, okay, what's going on? And I get nervous, right? For example, when somebody says that we need to talk, Like, oh, gosh, what's she going to say? She said she and her husband had decided to be a child-free couple and not have children.
And I said, okay, okay. She says, are you all right with that? I said, Lydia, it's not mine to be right or not with. It is what it is.
I will be honest with you now. And I've been honest with her since. It was a shock because, her whole life, I had pictured something for her, and she had chosen something different. And so it wasn't that I was mad. I wasn't upset. I wasn't, you know, any of those things. But it was just like that paradigm shift, like that needle scratch, like, okay, wait a minute. Everything just changed, yet nothing changed because she's still the same person. I will tell you, and I have told her I grieved for a week or two. Not for her, but for me. Cause I was like, well, I'm never going to be a grandma, right?
People ask me all the time, "So, do you have grandkids yet? Are you going to have grandkids? When's your daughter going to have kids?" It's not enough that they invade her with that; then they also ask people around her.
But I'm perfectly fine with her having decisions that affect her life because no child should be made to have children to fulfill their parents' wish to have grandchildren. So, yeah, I'm all for her reproductive freedom and her choice and that she and her husband came together. And I'll tell you what. If he wanted kids and she didn't, I still support her not having them because it's her body and it's. And it's her half of the relationship that would be raising children. So, yeah, yeah, it's.
[00:22:02] Speaker B: It is. I don't know. It's. It's a freedom. Also, there are a lot of people on the planet. I'm sorry, but this is great. You were thinking, if. If you. If you don't want to have. If you want to have kids, if you. Whatever, it should be your choice, and you should stop shaming each other for whatever choice it is if. If you're working and don't want to have kids, entirely on focus on your life and career. Don't shame other women who chose to have kids or chose to be just a housewife. And the other way around, it is the same. And believe me, no one has it all.
That was a myth. They told us when we are growing older, as a lady, you can have it all. No, you have to make choices, have career kids, enjoy your life, and have whatever you want to do, and nobody has it all. And I just tell that person, you're a liar if he said, I have it all. I'm happy everywhere all of my life. I have a successful career, which is precisely what I want. Yeah, kids. And my personal life is amazing. And I'm happy 100%. No. No, you're not.
[00:23:12] Speaker A: There's a. What movie are you living in exactly?
[00:23:17] Speaker B: There was a fun research. I was reading about it. The happiest men in the world are married men, and the happiest women are unmarried and childless women.
[00:23:29] Speaker A: Yeah, that's interesting.
I know we try not to be political here, but I do want to bring up and this is, again, the United States. We are right now, as we're recording this coming up to an election in the United States between Kamala Harris and Donald Trump. Tim Walls is the vice presidential nominee under Kamala Harris, and JD Vance is the vice presidential nominee under Donald Trump. And JD Vance and his ilk have been on record saying that women who don't have children, first of all, calling us childless cat ladies like, yes, I've had a child, but I don't have children at home now, so. And I do have cats. So there you go.
Women who have not had children and don't intend to have children should have less of a voice in what happens in our government because we have less of a stake in the future.
Okay, well, first of all, I'm voting on today. I'm not voting on 20 years from now, although that is part of it, too. Right. But I want to see change today. I am not trying to affect change for grandchildren and great-grandchildren, although I hope those things happen.
But also, one of the things that has been coming up is that single women should not have the right to vote. So we are, you know, we tout ourselves here in the US as being this progressive nation, and we are far from it if we have presidential vice presidential candidates talking about not only removing reproductive rights, which they have successfully done in a lot of the United States here. And yes, I know that is the case in many countries worldwide. I acknowledge that.
But also to remove our right to vote in elections, have a say in our local government when running for office, and hold positions of authority. And when I first read The Handmaid's Tale, I thought, wow, can you imagine if that dystopian, you know, ever became a reality? And then I started to watch the television show, you know, under the Obama administration, I think, when it first started coming out. And then, things that were just like that started to happen.
[00:25:57] Speaker B: Almost. Yeah, you almost are going to be. Yeah, yeah.
[00:26:00] Speaker A: Where they've started to prosecute women or remove the ability for them to have life-saving medical procedures because doctors are afraid to do a d and C, even after a fetus has died, even after there is an ectopic pregnancy, even if there's absolutely zero opportunity for that pregnancy to become a human, living, breathing being. Doctors are afraid to help women. And they're bleeding in parking lots. They're bleeding out. I have a friend on TikTok that I've made whose story has been told. It was two weeks before her miscarriage was finalized. During that time, doctors refused to help her in her state because they were afraid of losing their licenses and being arrested for helping her in the meantime. She was septic. She was dealing with her whole body shutting down because doctors were afraid to help her. This is one of the reasons we talk about reproductive rights being so important. It's not a hypothetical. It isn't a. Women might die. Women are coming close to death and dying because doctors are afraid to do procedures that save the lives of women in favor of their careers, even when it cannot be a viable pregnancy.
And it just, first, breaks my heart for those women and their families.
Secondly, it's just I'm irate about people in a patriarchal society trying to control what women can and cannot do. We talked a few weeks ago about education and how educating women leads them to make reproductive decisions. And that the more educated a woman is, the less likely she is to have unwanted pregnancies and unexpected pregnancies, and more of an opportunity to plan your family that way. And I think that is still true. I think that number one, as we started this conversation today, we have to be okay talking about these things openly. And number two, we have to advocate for women to be educated so they can understand their rights, make those choices for themselves, and live their happiest lives.
[00:28:41] Speaker B: I could not say better at the end.
I want to say something that also some women, when they get pregnant, don't want the child. They want the kid.
[00:28:52] Speaker A: Yep.
[00:28:52] Speaker B: And, and some, there's horrible mothers believe it around the world, they can abuse the kids physically and verbally, and that will cause the kids to have a very difficult life also.
It is just let every. For me, that is, I feel the world's problem now. It's just respect and understanding each other. Just whatever you want to do, I respect you. I don't have to accept it, but I accept your decision. Let's move on from it. There are a lot of humans, 9 billion people, or I don't know, 9 billion people worldwide. It's enough people. Sometimes, you can see them online. Oh, when we're scared, we will not have enough. No, there are a lot of people around the world. We don't have to be multiple. And at the same time, if you cannot afford a good life for the kids, don't bring them into this world. It's so crazy.
It can damage your health. No need, no need, no need for it.
If you want to have kids, bring them to the world. Love them, and be happy. I hope all of whoever wants to have kids to have kids as much as they want. Yeah. Just also, as you said, with abortion. Yeah. It can cause a lot of issues because sometimes women don't want the kids, and then they end up with unwanted pregnancies. And that is, like, put the kids for adoption, which is. I found it the worst thing ever to do: if you don't want the kid, do the abortion. Don't wait until you give birth and you just give the kid away. I understand. Maybe under very difficult conditions, but putting the kids away for adoption it's going to be their screw for the rest of their life because they will still look for an explanation why my mom or my mother didn't want me. Yeah.
[00:30:55] Speaker A: Yeah. I mean, it's a complex topic. It's a complex issue.
[00:30:59] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:31:00] Speaker A: And every single situation, every single birth, every single pregnancy, every single lack of pregnancy, every single decision is so incredibly personal. And for any one of us to try to dictate how a woman or a family, and I say women because it is our bodies, but in many cases, it's a couple that's making decisions together too. I do want to acknowledge that, ultimately, it's a woman's body, and she should have the right to choose. But if you are in a loving relationship, it's a conversation you're having together.
But it's difficult for men in these situations as well. This woman that I was talking about that almost died. She wanted that pregnancy.
She was trying to have a baby with her husband, yet she could not. They have one child already. She wanted more. She hopes to have more in the future. But she's so scarred, and I don't mean physically scarred; I mean emotionally scarred from this whole trauma. She's almost afraid to try again because if it happens again, she could die. And she doesn't want to know what that would be like. And she doesn't want her daughter not to have a mother at the end of it. So, yeah. So, the bottom line is to respect women, listen to them, and not ask invading questions they don't want to answer.
If a woman wants to tell you whether she's having children, any of those, she will. If not, it's not your business, period, so.
All right. Well, this is a controversial topic. I didn't cry. I thought I would cry more.
[00:32:38] Speaker B: I think we had our crying session before, you know, and on Tuesday, you know, that was like preparing for it. Yeah.
[00:32:48] Speaker A: So whatever your thoughts are, we're happy to hear them. Please be kind in the comments. If you choose to comment or want to talk to either of us again, approach us with kindness because we have life stories, life decisions, and everything that has brought us to where we are today, and our hopes for the future are human. We are human beings dealing with the things that we deal with. So please be kind to one another. Thank you.
[00:33:16] Speaker B: Bye-bye.
[00:33:19] Speaker A: If you're interested in using our database, joining us as a guest for an episode, or just saying hi, go to underrepresentedintech.com. See you next week.
