Episode Transcript
[00:00:03] Speaker A: Three, two, one.
[00:00:06] Speaker B: Hello, Samah.
[00:00:08] Speaker A: Hello, Michelle. How are you?
[00:00:10] Speaker B: I'm good. I don't sound like myself. I have a little bit lower voice because anybody who knows me knows that after a word camp, I will get laryngitis just from the sheer amount of talking I do. And because I'm talking over crowds all the time, so I'm feeling fine, but I sound a little raspy today.
[00:00:27] Speaker A: So how was WordCamp Canada?
[00:00:30] Speaker B: It was amazing. And one of the things, and I think I should mention this here for sure, one of the things that the organizers asked speakers to do was to do a land acknowledgment at the beginning of your talk, and so really acknowledging that you know, the United States and Canada, all of North America, really, maybe not Mexico, but Canada and America. You know, we often say that it was discovered by, you know, Christopher Columbus or whomever. It wasn't discovered; it was here. People who lived here, to be discovered, meant that it was uncharted. Nobody was there. Right. It was stolen. So we were the United States, and Canada was colonized, and the lands were stolen from indigenous peoples. And so we did at the beginning of that to acknowledge whose land we were sitting upon and who it belonged to first so that we could pay homage to the different indigenous tribes that had settled there before colonization happened. And so that was something I was happy to do. And I discovered lots of tools online, like, you could go to whose land and find out whose land you're on there. There's another site that I mentioned yesterday on Twitter if anybody's interested. We can always share those. But to look and see, because I know that I sit here in Hilton, New York and that I am sitting on Seneca and how, I'm sure I'm not saying that, right, but land and I am a very white woman who was born here. But this land, originally, less than 200 years ago, was owned by other people. So we need to make that acknowledgment, and I thought that that was really, really good for Wordcamp Canada to ask us to pay attention to that. The keynote speaker was an Indigenous woman, which I thought was wonderful. So, yeah, that's awesome.
[00:02:30] Speaker A: I love that.
[00:02:31] Speaker B: That's a love.
[00:02:31] Speaker A: That's really nice.
[00:02:33] Speaker B: Yeah, It's one of those things where we don't often think about it because we just go about our day-to-day lives, but to remember that there is so much, so much that has been taken from indigenous peoples in North America especially, and that we call it the trail of tears. When they were put in these relocation camps and things like that, their lands were stolen from them, and it wasn't just their lands. Their people were slaughtered in Canada and the US. Their children were taken from them and put in schools to try to assimilate them and adopt them into white families. So that this would literally end the people's ability to continue to exist and to kill off, if you will, by assimilating their children into white culture and then marrying into white would eventually get rid of any semblance of indigenousness. I don't know what the right word is. Indigeneity in their bloodlines. And so it's just, maybe it's something we can dive into another time, a little bit deeper, not specifically tech, but it's nice that a tech conference like WordCamp Canada acknowledges those things.
[00:03:50] Speaker A: Yeah, absolutely.
[00:03:52] Speaker B: So last week, we teased out what we were going to talk about today; in spite of things that have happened over the weekend in our American politics, I still want to continue with this conversation because it's separate from all of what's going on in the news right now. And it has been downplayed a lot because of all that's happening in the news. And I'm not even going to acknowledge what's going on in the news right now. If you don't know, google it. But I found the link on LinkedIn. Catharina Rivera posted a link and some argument, let's say, or discourse, about the Economist, which is a magazine, and the Economist has a cover. We'll put a link to this, so if anybody wants to see it'll be in the show notes. But the economist put on a cover.
No way to run a country with a mobility device, a walker that somebody would use to steady themselves as they walk. And the front of it, to the front of it is a fixed president or seal of the president of the United States.
So that intimates a lot of things. First of all, the person who posted it, Katerina Rivera, said we'll also put a link to her commentary. Not just the article. Right. But she says this week's economist cover is ableist, disgraceful, and deeply offensive. It suggests that someone who uses a walker as a mobility aid is unfit to run the country.
Disabled people are very capable of leadership, period. Not despite our disabilities, just exactly as we are. And using a mobility aid isn't something that's shameful, or that makes someone unfit for leadership. And let's not forget here in the states that Franklin Delano Roosevelt, who was the president through World War Two, Washington disabled president, and a wheelchair user. And that the impact of this cover extends beyond the economist itself. So, there's a lot more to her post. I'm not going to read the whole thing, but I think that kind of really gives you the gist of it.
And I think it's true, right? We sometimes assume that because somebody has the outward appearance of a disability, that means that their mind is also lacking, which could not be further from the truth. And before we dive into this in particular, I want to share another story that was just echoed again by another friend on Facebook the other day. But I have several friends who are deaf. I live in Rochester, New York, which has the second largest population of deaf people in North America and the United States, especially second only to Gallaudet University, and where that is because we have the National Technical Institute for the Deaf here in Rochester. So I have lots of deaf friends. So my deaf friend put, you know, when you get an airline ticket, you can put, if you need extra assistance because you can't hear the announcements. Right. So maybe there's another way. Now everything's on your phone. But back then, that wasn't; they tried to put the; the airport tried to put her in a wheelchair to help her get from gate to gate. She's deaf. She is very athletic. She's a golf player. She is one of the most athletic women I know. And they tried to put her in a wheelchair because her ears didn't work. So that is just to give you an idea of how bad it can get. Right? Yeah, but what are your thoughts on this cover, and what was Katarina saying about it?
[00:07:23] Speaker A: First, it's absolutely unacceptable to shame or to make fun of people with disabilities.
I believe every injured individual deserves respect and dignity regardless of their physical or mental abilities. And dismissing or mocking someone's abilities based on their disability is not only hurtful, but it really can lead to harmful stereotypes and stigmas. I found it very ridiculous.
I did a little bit of research, and I want to say around the world, there are 1.3 billion people who experience significant disability. That 16%, which is one to six of us as human beings worldwide, is only in the states; according to the Centers for Disease and Control Prevention, CDC, there are 61 million. So, 26% of the population and one in four Americans have a disability.
I found it crazy. I don't know what the Economists were trying to do. Maybe they want to track some viewers or readers or raise their sales, but I found it very crazy to mock and make fun of disabled people and say that you cannot do anything. I found it entirely appropriate to assert that a person with a disability cannot aspire to become a leader or president or hold any position of management or leadership. The qualities of becoming a leader, such as vision, determination, empathy, and the ability to inspire and lead others, are not related to what you can lead a Walker. So I found it very crazy. They mention it, and I don't know; I usually read some of their articles and find them nice and educational. They talk a lot about what's happening in the world. But I don't know about this one. I missed it. And when you shared it with me, I was so shocked. Like, I know maybe they are not supporting Biden, or they are supporting Trump or whatever, who they are, but this is not okay. It's kind of a below-the-belt statement. Do you just hurt the feelings of a lot of people? And I was reading about, I don't know, of the disability. Right. They made the statement on the ableist cover. And I'm really sad because you just, there's one to four from the American has a disability, and you just insulted the whole 61 million people just like that by just posting this. And you're not going to attract attention for what you want to say because, in the end, you just cause some crazy chaos online.
[00:10:09] Speaker B: Yeah. And I do understand that they are actually trying to say that geriatric people, right, people older are unfit to lead, but that's not the symbolism that they used. They didn't use the symbol of geriatric. I know so many young people who use walkers, who use canes, who use wheelchairs, who are blind and use guide dogs and the white canes and all the things that have to go with you when you're a disabled person.
And I think it was absolutely shameful what they did now to turn that around to the tech community so that we're applying this in tech. For the most part, you and me, it's WordPress that we are involved with in terms of tech. And I haven't spoken at many tech conferences outside of the WordPress arena, not all WordCamps, but outside of WordPress. Right.
And I will say that with my scooter and my wheelchair if you will, I have not experienced that within the WordPress community.
I think people do see me as a leader in the WordPress community, especially around things like underrepresented statuses, helping people find jobs, the things that I do, and the things that I love to do in WordPress. And you know that I lead post status and am the director. Community engagement over at stellar WP. Not once has anybody said she's. At least not to my face or that I've heard about because her legs don't work as well as ours. She should not be fit to do that. Right? So, nobody has ever done that. Have I not been able to gain access to physical spaces? Yes, there have been parties that, when somebody got there, didn't realize because it said it was accessible, that it wasn't truly accessible. For example, there was a party in Bangkok for work camp Asia, and the company hired this boat to do this party, and I'm not even going to take them out because they felt so terrible.
The boat said it was accessible. And when this person talked to them, they said, yes, no problem. But when they went out to check it out, there were two steps up onto the boat and two steps down into the boat. You cannot do that with a wheelchair. You cannot do that with a scooter.
Even. Even if I was even. I can walk a little bit, right? But I have to be able to hold onto railings. I have to be able to take a breath, all of those things.
So, getting on and off a rocking boat that didn't have a gangplank that I could just walk onto was not going to be possible. And the person who had set this up and invited me called me and said, I am so sorry. There's nothing I could do at this point. And I said, don't worry about it. I'll go out to dinner with friends. I'm not upset because you did everything you possibly could. You didn't say, well, we picked a spot. Michelle can't come. Don't anybody tell her? I mean, it wasn't like that, right? There was another one on someplace's roof, and the elevator only went to the floor below it. And then you had to take a staircase to the next one. They did not know that either. Right? So that. I'm not upset. I'm upset with places that don't make spaces accessible, of course, but not with somebody who was told they could invite me because I would be able to enjoy the space.
[00:13:24] Speaker A: So.
[00:13:26] Speaker B: It's not that anybody ever wanted to try to deny me access that I'm aware of. And I will say that.
And I assume, I always assume if I am working with somebody to make someplace more accessible for myself, it's not just for myself; it's also for everybody else who may have a disability, especially physical disability and need to have access to space, I'm just the person who's very loud about it that they know open to ask questions.
For example, we both know I wrote that article a few years ago, five days without a shower. I mentioned it every once in a while and how inaccessible that space was. That was not designed to keep me out. They, the organizers, were not looking at it with the same lens that I would have to look at it with. They didn't think about the fact that the front doors didn't have paddles or any motorized entranceway, so somebody would have to open a door for me. They knew that there were disability-accessible hotel rooms. They didn't know how inaccessible those accessible hotel rooms really were. So I'm not faulting them but as a result of my willingness to be vulnerable, to talk about only being able to sponge bathe for five days. Right. All of those things. We've seen WordPress become much more accommodating. So there's a part of the handbook for Wordcamp organizers that now talks about physical accessibility.
WordCamp organizers know that they can ask me questions, so they do. How wide is the wheelchair?
How wide is it? Sometimes, things can be googled, which is fine. I still don't mind answering them because I love seeing that there's a real interest in making sure that if it's accessible for Michelle, it's accessible for other people as well.
And ever since that article, every place I've ever spoken has ensured that either in the room I was in, everybody was on one level, or there was a ramp for me to get to the stage. I've never had to present in front of the stage for lack of access to the stage. So, I love that our community has become so much more aware of disabilities. I think I've had some part to play in that. I'm sure I'm not the only person, but I've been a very loud, squeaky wheel.
So, I don't think you'll ever see anything like what the economist has done here in anybody's or any company's WordPress blog.
[00:16:01] Speaker A: Definitely. I totally agree with you, and I'm really happy. The WordPress community is like we're becoming more respectful, more diverse, more inclusive, more looking at those things. And I know even starting from my side, the booth is designed to make it accessible. So people are not only on the stage, not reaching out for the talks, only also on the booth if you want to visit the booth to be accessible for a lot of people.
Yeah. I found it so crazy, the economist. I still didn't see anything from them online to say, "Hey, sorry, we didn't mean it or anything. They just let it be. At the same time, I don't know, maybe I don't know how, what they want, I don't know what they want from this article to share a specific message. Because in the end, maybe I don't want to dive into politics. We don't like to talk about politics. We're not going to talk about Joe Biden's performance or anything else. No. The only thing is they were very wrong examples to point out that he's not well fit to become president.
And also, at the same time, I don't like that he's getting old and that we should get rid of him. Not at all. There are a lot of aged, very capable people who can lead countries and companies. It's not me that you're all that you are expired. We should remove you. And that is something unacceptable. I wish they would make statements, even tweet, or I don't know. I'm waiting. I'm literally looking at them online. Just do something; please retract it.
[00:17:41] Speaker B: Say you're wrong. Yeah, yeah.
[00:17:43] Speaker A: I'm giving them until the end of this week. If they are not going to do that, honestly, I'm not going to read any article for them. And I just follow them online because I don't find them worth following after what they did. So.
[00:17:56] Speaker B: Yeah, I agree. Absolutely. So I guess the bottom line is to think about your messaging, think about how you are viewing people with disabilities, and think about the fact that, like everything we've said here today, like, my brain works just fine. For example, I can write around circles and speak circles around so many people.
I can lead a team. And just because I walk with a cane in my home and use a mobility device outside of my home does not decrease my value. I will not be a good softball player. Do not put me on your softball team. Right. There are things I recognize as my limitations. Nobody's asking me to be on their softball team. And that's because you recognize somebody's abilities to be able to contribute that way, of course. But as far as anything that has to do with abilities with your brain, abilities with your thoughts, and with your ability to lead, it has nothing to do with whether or not you walk.
[00:18:56] Speaker A: Well, yeah, absolutely.
[00:19:01] Speaker B: So, yeah, I also want to, just as we transition, let's transition to, like, I want to do a little bit of a recap from last week, too, if we can. So last week, we talked about Shah Jahan Jewel's open letter to WordCamp Europe 2025, which was about the fact that it's falling over the Muslim holiday aid. And I can't say it properly, so I'm not going to try to. You can say it for me.
Thank you.
[00:19:28] Speaker A: Maybe we should start some Arabic classes a little bit.
[00:19:30] Speaker B: I should because I don't want to. I don't want ever to want to, you know, just mangle other people's languages. So I'm glad that you're here to pronounce it properly for me. But we have, we don't always get a lot of feedback on our weekly broadcasts. Right. So I think sometimes I'll hear people say, wow, that was really good talk. You really. People say, oh, what you. I listen to everything you talk about. I learned so much. But specifically last week, and I think it was because it was specifically about Wordcamp. There's a lot of conversations happening. You've seen some on Twitter. I've seen some. I don't know why I said it that way. Twitter, Twitter.
I posted, I post those stories also on my personal Facebook and my personal LinkedIn pages. The one on Facebook now has 36 comments, and everybody is very supportive. Nobody has said anything negative about it about the topic except to be supportive of our Muslim community and respect the holiday there. So, I just wanted to say that it's really nice to know that the conversations we have here do make people think about being better and more inclusive overall. So that makes me happy. What are your thoughts?
[00:20:54] Speaker A: Me? I'm really happy about it because, as we said, we're not going to talk about religion and politics but look at what we are talking about. And it's. I'm happy that we have started feeling comfortable speaking up about it. And at the end, as we mentioned, we are here, just giving advice is like, how we see it from our corner or how we see it overall, how we see it. I also get some nice DM's, some nice likes and tweets, and some DM and tweets. People are saying that, yeah, it's really. I'm really happy that you open up. Yes. I feel more glad that someone spoke about this because I always felt weird when I was gonna speak about religion because I think, if I'm not mistaken, the code of conduct and the world camps we cannot talk about because it's very edgy. Also, a place to talk if we can talk about religion or how we gonna.
And I'm really happy that in 2026, maybe that will be better planning, as well as for WordCamp Asia. I know there was a statement that they will keep in mind for WordCamp Asia from 2026 to 2027. And that makes me really happy that you and I were talking about it, and someone listened. Someone here. Yes, that's, we're going to do so. Yeah, it definitely has a positive impact, and yeah, I'm just waiting for our talk today about politics. What's gonna be the replies?
[00:22:27] Speaker B: Well, I think it's also, it's important to say that when we have addressed religion and politics, it's not to proselytize for a particular religion, and it's not to proselytize against any religion. And the same for politics. Right. If you follow me anywhere, you know where I fall politically. But we, I don't bring that in here. I just talk about what's happening with covers and how people are being addressed. So, while we do bring politics into it, we are not having political conversations. We are simply addressing how underrepresented people deal within those realms. Right. So we respect our religion and politics, those kinds of things. It doesn't mean we don't have our own opinions. We just don't bring those opinions into the show. But follow us on our, follow us on Twitter if you want to see a little more.
[00:23:19] Speaker A: These are the two topics I love to talk about: religion and politics. I love to discuss politics all of the time. So, you know, it's a little bit that makes me happy, but also a little bit of torture. Like, can I say my opinion? No, we can't. We can't. We just say it on our social media. Do whatever we want.
[00:23:37] Speaker B: That's right. And to each other off camera, we're not recording.
Oh, it's hard to believe that anybody who would be this supportive of underrepresented communities would fall to the far right. We'll just leave it at that.
Anyway, we do have another topic. I love that we're thinking ahead for our topics because I love our topic for next week. Our topic for next week we're going to talk about, and I'm, and I hope I don't pronounce these things so, but we're going to talk about hijab, niqab, we're going to talk about Burka. We're going to talk about, and then we're, and that's, you know, all within certain religion and culture. And we're also going to talk about how Wiggs and Tycho, I think I said that. Right also applies within the Jewish communities and the orthodox Jewish communities and how so many places are either banning them or outlawing them and have been for a few years now because they see those head coverings as oppressive to women. But we want to talk about how it's not an oppression within certain communities and cultures; it's an expression of self. And so we're going to dig into that a little bit next week. So, I need to do a little more research because I've never been part of any of those communities.
We're going to see if we can get somebody to come join the show. We'll see. We can talk about some of these things as well. So until then, we'll see everybody next week.
Just be respectful of each other. Love each other. I love this community because we can be that way, but sometimes, it's not as pretty. So, we need to ensure that we always respect each other. And that's what we're here for, right?
[00:25:26] Speaker A: Yes, definitely. We make it prettier. We just like making it prettier. We just like a makeover for it.
[00:25:31] Speaker B: That's right. That's right.
Anyway, we'll see everybody next week. Thanks.
