Episode Transcript
[00:00:02] Speaker A: And one, two, three.
[00:00:06] Speaker B: Hello, Samah.
[00:00:08] Speaker A: Hello, Michelle. How are you?
[00:00:10] Speaker B: I am good. How are you?
[00:00:12] Speaker A: I'm really, really good. I know you have two upcoming events, right?
[00:00:17] Speaker B: WordCamp Canada and yes, WordCamp Canada. What's the other one? Oh, yes.
[00:00:23] Speaker A: Oh my God.
[00:00:24] Speaker B: I'm thinking, where am I traveling to? No, it's an online event. Of course, I'll be fired for that.
So, this podcast comes out on Fridays. And so while you're listening to this, if you're listening on Friday, I will be in Canada at WordCamp Canada when it comes out. And then one week from today, Friday, not when we're recording, but when you're listening again, podcasting is so confusing.
We'll be celebrating Stellar Spark, and so it's an online conference that I'm putting on for Stellarwp. We've got some great speakers coming up, including Carolyn and Alex. From yoast, we have Josepha. Hayden Chamfossi is our keynote. So I hope that people are listening to our podcast next week, but after stellar Spark, so that they can come and hear all the wonderful talks.
[00:01:15] Speaker A: Definitely. Personally, I will definitely join. So yeah, it's going to be awesome. So you have a really busy time ahead.
[00:01:23] Speaker B: Yes, for sure. For sure. It's a busy week.
Okay, I'm going to show my feet of clay to the world right now. I hate doing slides. So my cat is like looking out the window at the birds in my bird feeder. Sorry. She completely caught me off guard.
I hate doing slides. I have it all in my head when it's time to sit down and put it on slides. I have been known. Oh my gosh, this is terrible. I've been known to do my slides the morning of my talks more than once. And that is not a good way to be. Like, I need to take a beat from everybody else. It's one of those who do as I say, not as I do, because I don't feel as stressed out as I am by waiting until the last minute. But no. At WordCamp Canada, I'm very excited. I'm going to be telling the story of the Underrepresented In Tech, which started with Allie Nimmons and me, and now you and I are together. So, you know, I'm very excited about being able to kind of talk about not just the history of how it came together, but of course the story of why it came together and our hopes for the future.
And that's the why, right? So why we're doing what we do is because we have hope for a more represented world, of course, you know, definitely. Yeah.
[00:02:41] Speaker A: So, yeah.
[00:02:41] Speaker B: So thank you for bringing those up because I'm very excited about both of them. And by.
[00:02:46] Speaker A: I'm pretty sure you're gonna be amazing. I wish I could see you there, but I will follow you online and on Twitter, and it's like, I'll be tweeting.
[00:02:54] Speaker B: Hopefully, we'll get a lot of good selfies up in Canada, too. So, I put together my little selfie reel.
But to be fair, I just made my first cup of coffee of the day, so I haven't had my caffeine yet.
Oh, you get the morning, Michelle. And my brain is still not firing on all pistons, as they say.
Oh, but we teased this out last week when we were meeting with Christina Louise Treadwell, which, by the way, was just delightful. What a great interview.
[00:03:25] Speaker A: It was amazing. Yeah.
[00:03:26] Speaker B: What a wonderful person, for sure.
But we wanted to talk today about an open letter to the WordCamp Europe 2025 organizers by Shahjahan Jewel, who goes by Jewel, and I don't know. Do you want to read some of the letter maybe? Do you have it in front of you? I'll let you know.
[00:03:45] Speaker A: Yeah, I have it before me. I think I will just go through it quickly.
He was trying. He's trying to reach out to the WordCamp Europe organizer to ask them kindly to remove WordCamp Europe 2025 dates because of Eid al-Adha, a Muslim holiday. And he was asking them if they could move it because there's a lot of people who will not be able to join because this is the celebration, you spend it with your family. He mentioned a couple of related tweets. Last WordCamp, people had to leave WordCamp Europe earlier because Eid al-Adha was the last day of WordCamp Europe. It was the day before Eid al-Adha. So people need to travel.
And I'm really happy that he spoke up about it. And I know people are wondering why it's this year on the 17 June and next year it's gonna be on the 6th of June, I think. WordCamp Europe 2025. I just want to explain a little bit about the timing of Eid futurization, Eid al-Adha, which is one of two Islamic holidays set by the lunar Islamic calendar, which is based upon the cycle of the moon. So every year, there is a difference of eleven to twelve days. It's not following our European solar pace, Georgian calendar. So that's now to note, to let the people who hear us. That's why every year it's earlier, between ten to twelve days. And to give some information, there are two major holidays, Eid al Fitr and Eid al Adha. Eid al Fitr is a festival of breaking fast, coming after the month of Ramadan. Eid al Adha is a celebration of the end of the Hajj, which is the Pilgrimage to Mecca. Those are some of the biggest holidays for Muslims. So I understand him, and I feel his pain also because it is the holiday that you want to spend with your family. And also, so you want to feel belong to the community. You want to feel acknowledged. You know how much I love research.
[00:06:09] Speaker B: Let me, before you break into the research, let me just mention a couple of things that you kind of triggered in my brain, and then I'm going to turn it back to your research. But the first thing is, the idea of having holidays around lunar cycles is not just Islamic, right? So Easter, which is a high Christian holiday, also follows a lunar cycle because Lent follows the lunar cycle. And so it's not something that people can say, well, how are you ever going to be able to plan around it? Well, number one, you can plan around it because the moon is regular. We know this, right? So we have known for years when all these holidays will be coming. But also, he does equate it to being like, like saying, let's have this over Christmas, and how people would be like, you can't have it on Christmas. That's a holiday that people spend with their families. So. Okay, continue, please.
[00:06:55] Speaker A: So you know how much I love researching. And I know I want to explain a little bit to people because I always consider our WordPress community global as one. Of course, some people will say we don't celebrate Muslim holidays in Europe. Well, let me say that there are 1.9 billion Muslims around the world and 25 million in Europe. I think that until 2016 or 2018, the research was in Europe. So there's a big number. And in the WordPress community, there's a big number. And it's nice to be acknowledged or to keep in mind the organizers or from WordCamp Central when they decide the dates, to check those dates, because it's not anymore. WordCamp Europe, because everyone is coming from Asia, a lot of Asian communities are attending, and American communities are attending.
I consider WordCamp Europe to be WordCamp World, with everyone attending worldwide. So, I was looking to it to be the first example of thinking more about diversity. And I know WordCamp US in September. It's far away. WordCamp Asia in February. But in the next two years in Asia, Ramadan will happen at the same time as when they host WordCamp Asia. So, I hope they plan to avoid having the event during Ramadan because people will be exhausted. And I know there are 1.5 billion Muslims in Asia, so that is really a big number to do calculations.
I also did some small research because I think the planning was, let's say, choosing the city and the dates. I think it was a combination of not one person. But I was hoping that people who will plan it could a little bit keep in mind because we want to make our WordPress community more diverse and enhance the sense of belonging with each other. So please keep the planning in your head. I know they're not going to change it. I know they're not going to change the dates because the venues are already booked, and also, at the same time, they are moving it to another weekend or the weekend after. It's technically impossible because there are art fair and bass of that that month.
But I hope that they keep it in mind for the future. And I have a crazy idea. I would love to have WordCamp, not on Friday, Saturday, or Sunday, because Friday is the weekend for Muslims, Saturday for Jews, and Sunday for Christians, and also for non-believers. Let's say it's a weekend. I like to have the weekend because usually, when you finish WordCamp, you spend Sunday traveling, and on Monday, you start work. So it will be nice to have the weekend to relax and start working on Monday.
[00:10:01] Speaker B: Exactly. And I know, and I don't think she will. I know she will not be upset if I bring this up. So Miriam Schwab is somebody who's devoted her faith, and she's a Jewish woman. And so when I've had her speak at events before, I have to take into account when sundown is on Fridays, if she's speaking on a Friday because that at sundown on Friday is when she starts the Shabbat. Thank you. Shabbat. I couldn't think of the word, and I know it because I follow all these wonderful women on TikTok. I've learned so much, but words are escaping me this morning. But yes. And so I'm very fiercely aware of working with her to make sure she's scheduled at a time she can talk. She can speak because it isn't breaking into her Shabbat and also just, you know, I'm going to kind of bleed into some other areas here that I think we've been doing better as a whole at accommodating people's religious needs around food as well because we do have people who need to eat kosher or halal and so making. There are probably others that I'm forgetting. And so I, you know, at WordCamp Europe, I was noticing this year all of the different lines that were very accommodating, not just to vegans and gluten-free and all of that, but to people's religious needs as well. And so I thought that we were doing better, but clearly, we are not perfect at it yet.
And so one of the things I also wanted to mention is that it's not, you know, you mentioned how many billion people are around the world.
[00:11:38] Speaker A: 1.9 billion people.
[00:11:39] Speaker B: 1.9 billion people.
Islam is one of the major religions in the world.
[00:11:45] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:11:46] Speaker B: And just because we think eurocentrically sometimes, or us centrically, does not negate the fact that it is one of the major religions. We're not talking about accommodating a small section of people or a small break-off community that people have never heard of or extremists in a certain religion. So we're talking about a huge number of people who are affected. And we haven't, I don't think, ever on the show have we talked about religion before because, you know, politics and religion are things people don't want to talk about very often. But we're the podcast that breaks all the rules on that because we're not afraid to talk about these things. And, you know, in the past, I've, you know, had to have my broad shoulders and thick skin on because, you know, I'm, I was told last week that I'm a disrupter in a good way.
[00:12:37] Speaker A: Oh, okay.
[00:12:38] Speaker B: Right. I'm going to add that to my resume, but maybe not, but we do need to think about what underrepresentation means. And 1.5 billion people don't feel like they are underrepresented. But it is, right? How many billion people there are in the world? I don't know, but you probably do. I think a lot of research is more than that.
And so to accommodate, and as he says, we would never in a million years think of doing something on Christmas or Easter, like I said, which also the date changes for, so why aren't we thinking about other religions? And this is not a slam on the organizers. I don't want them to be taken that way. I know being an organizer is a very difficult task, and sometimes you don't remember or think about things. And so we just want to bring it forward again today because I think Jewel wrote a very well-thought-out letter. It wasn't scathing; it wasn't attacking. It was a plea to please, in the future, take this into account. And I think that the way he wrote it was actually very beautiful. And so we just want to ensure that those kinds of things are represented as well. And there's a lot in the world that we don't always think about, and that's what underrepresented in tech is about because we need to help people remember those things.
[00:14:07] Speaker A: Yeah, and I want to, first, there's 8 billion people worldwide. So.
[00:14:12] Speaker B: So 1 billion of 8 billion is significant.
[00:14:19] Speaker A: No, I just want to say that I believe we all must respect religions and religious freedom because this is one of the fundamental human rights.
Also, I want to emphasize that showing respect does not mean that we say we are alike, but showing respect means being aware of our differences, understanding one another, respecting one another, and accepting one another. And in the end, I believe definitely 100%, there's no bad attention from the organizers. Or when they published the call for the city last year when they mentioned that, I don't mean the bad tension; maybe they dropped it from their mind. They didn't check it. But also that's for the future, to keep it in mind, to look for those things. I know the personal information that they kept. They were looking for Ramadan and the Eid al Fitr, and they said it's happening in March, so we're fine with it. I know one of the organizers, Patricia, who is a really amazing person. She is welcoming, she's international, she's an awesome person. And I think that can easily be when they choose the dates that were offered to them, and then they choose the first weekend, and they say, Ramadan is far away, so it's fine. Also, I know there will be an official reply from WordCamp Central, so I'm hoping to see the reply. But for the future, we should look into those things. Definitely, and also move it. Let's not host it on Friday, Saturday, or Sunday. And I'm gonna say that conversation happened today. I was talking with someone. Yeah, someone. His name starts with the letter T; he said it should not be on Friday and Saturday. In the past, it was on Saturday and Sunday, and they removed it. So, honestly, let's have it on the weekdays. Yeah.
[00:16:22] Speaker B: So WordCamp US, I mean, it's. I think it's hard to get away from a Friday. I will say that out loud. Right. But WordCamp US this year is not on Saturday or Sunday.
[00:16:32] Speaker A: Awesome.
[00:16:34] Speaker B: I'm looking at the dates. It's the 17th through the 20th. So it's Tuesday through Friday, allowing people to travel Monday and then probably back home on Saturday. But, yeah. So one of the things that I think I hear a lot in opposition to things underrepresented is, well, you can't expect people to think about everything, or you can't expect people, like, how are they supposed to know? First of all, this is why we're here, but also. And not to, you know, I made a comment on Twitter a few years ago. We all know about the underrepresented lack of underrepresentation at WordCamp Europe. And, you know, the tweet that has over 30,000 impressions on it. Oh, my goodness. And I was, you know, Persona non grata with many people last year. But change happens, right? So you look at the lineup this year; it's a much more balanced lineup. WordCamp US last year ensured they had a much more balanced lineup. Other events are looking at that, making sure there's representation. A few years ago, I talked about the need for accessibility, and now word camps are checking with me a lot as somebody who's loud and vocal to make sure that they're not just accommodating to me but that people that I represent who need wheelchair access and things like that.
So there's a saying, I don't know if you have it in your culture, too, where the squeaky wheel gets the oil.
So if you think about, as you're pushing a shopping cart, the squeaky wheel is the one you're going to oil because the other ones are working, right?
The one that's loud and the one that's saying, look at me, look at me. So I'm okay with being the squeaky wheel if it means that we make change for the better, for more people. And I think it's good to be a disruptor sometimes, but I have always done it kindly. And I think that the way we're discussing it today is also kind because we realize there's a lot that goes into the planning, but we also want to. We also want to echo Jewel’s request. And, you know, heighten his call attention to his letter, which we will include in the show notes; we have a link for that, too. So if you're interested in reading it in its entirety, you know, you'll find that on our website. But, we just want to ensure that underrepresented people, even if they're not really underrepresented, are 8th of them, or more than 8th of the entire population. Still, we just want to make sure that people are being accommodated. And if you cannot attend something because of the dates that it falls on interfering with, you know, religious holidays, I think that's something that we can do better at going forward. And so I expect that that will come from WordCamp Central, that this will be something that we'll be paying more attention to in the future. I expect that that's what we'll see. But, again, I haven't seen anything yet.
[00:19:34] Speaker A: Yeah, I think, and also, it's nice to let some people, when they talk, that they, someone is hearing them. We hear and feel you, and I know it is difficult. We don't want to talk about politics. A very difficult time for me. To say it like, hey, especially now in Europe with all of the election, blah, blah, blah, that, hey, it's my Muslim holiday.
And at the same time, I think we all would grow. We learn, and we'll move on. And I know it will be very difficult in 2025 to change it, but I hope they keep it in mind for 2026. And please keep in mind it will be on different dates. Yeah, yeah.
[00:20:15] Speaker B: I don't know if you remember, what year was it?
I think it must have been 2018 or 2019.
[00:20:25] Speaker A: WordCamp Europe happened in Ramadan. It was worth camping.
[00:20:30] Speaker B: I'm talking about WordCamp US. It was either 2018 or 2019 fell over. Halloween is not a holy day, which is, I mean, yes, for some people, it is. I understand that. Right, I'll. Saints Day, whatever. But most people don't celebrate it that way. For most people, it's just a fun holiday to celebrate. And people were like, how could you do that? I want to take my kids trick or treating, blah, blah. Well, that's just that you're talking about that kind of event being important. This actually has spiritual weight behind it, you know? And so I think that if you could be upset about not taking your kids to get candy from strangers, you should also think about something that's a holy day for others.
[00:21:10] Speaker A: So, yeah, I think they should look at the whole continent or, let's say, the most celebrated holidays worldwide. They just keep in mind about it. And yeah, I wish for me. How can I say that? I don't know why I used to love WordCamps in October because you feel a little bit far away from WordCamp Europe. Do you feel like you need this September to put you in the mood to start working after the summer vacation or the summertime?
The WordCamp is at the end of October, but I know they're moving it to.
[00:21:46] Speaker B: September all the time. So, like the first year, it was in December.
The first WordCamp US was in December. I drove to it because it was about a six-hour drive from me. And then it's been in August, September, and December. I think this year is in September. It's been in October, November, and December. I'm like, just pick a month and stick with it.
It doesn't matter. I'll go. Whatever it is, I'll be there.
[00:22:14] Speaker A: I think November can be, I don't know.
[00:22:21] Speaker B: American Thanksgiving. Yeah, Thanksgiving, yeah.
[00:22:25] Speaker A: But it is the last week, right? Of November. So maybe in the middle of November.
[00:22:29] Speaker B: It's the fourth Thursday of November, so it will also change its date. So there's a lot like Mother's Day and Father's Day. All of these things depend on other things and not just a specific year's date. So, it is definitely something. And you can't just make a list of all the holidays. Christmas is always December 25; New Year is always January 1 because they change because of the way. This is a little-known fact that is completely unrelated, but election day in the United States is the first Tuesday of November, which falls after a Monday. So it will never be on November 1. It can only be November 2 or later. But it's always the first Tuesday that falls after a Monday. It's like, who makes this stuff up? I don't know. I don't know where these days.
[00:23:16] Speaker A: Is it like bad luck or something or just like. No. Did somebody just hate the 1 November?
[00:23:22] Speaker B: I have no idea.
Crazy. But anyway, I think the main point for us is just to remember that there are more people in the world who celebrate more things than we do—or that at least I do, or that we collectively might. And then to pay attention to those things and make sure that we are inclusive of people's needs. And I think that's the message. We can't change things, but we hope we can effect a change.
[00:23:53] Speaker A: Future, and we learn and move forward. Yeah, exactly. And, yeah, that's. I could not say it better.
[00:24:03] Speaker B: I know, you make a mistake, you learn from it, you do better. That's the way that we work in the world. So. All right.
Actually, I always say we never know what we will talk about. We do know what we will talk about next week, too. Can I talk about this a little? Can I tease this out?
[00:24:18] Speaker A: Sure.
[00:24:21] Speaker B: Where did I get it? In our notes. Okay. So, the magazine the Economist has put forward on their cover this week, and we'll have this out next week. Everybody will be able to see it.
It says there is no way to run a country when talking about the US presidential election. And they have a walker, like a mobility aid walker, with the seal of the president of the United States attached to it, implying that if you are geriatric and old enough to need a walker, you should not be president of the United States. This has gotten the disabled community kind of up in arms, quite honestly, to use a phrase that I probably shouldn't use around disabled people. But it's gotten riled up, including me, of course, because to imply that because somebody does not walk well means that they cannot lead is not a good thing. So tune in next week where we talk about disability and how not to piss off the disabled community, but also how you can get your point across about age and senility, perhaps, right. There are certain things that should disqualify you from being a leader of a major world country, any world country.
But not being able to walk is not one of them. So we'll talk about that next week. In the meantime, everybody has a good weekend.
[00:25:45] Speaker A: Yeah, have a good weekend. Good luck with WordCamp Canada and the Stellar Spark conference.
[00:25:53] Speaker B: Awesome. All right, we'll see everybody next week.
[00:25:56] Speaker A: See you next week. Bye.
