Episode Transcript
[00:00:00] Speaker A: Welcome to the Underrepresented in Tech podcast, where we talk about issues in underrepresentation and have difficult conversations.
Underrepresented in Tech is a free database with a goal of helping people find new opportunities in WordPress and tech.
Hello, Samah.
[00:00:18] Speaker B: Hello, mister.
[00:00:20] Speaker A: It's been a busy, busy year for us, and you've traveled more than I think you ever have before for work.
So we haven't exactly been regular with our podcast, but we're hoping to get more regular now that fall is starting up. Right.
[00:00:37] Speaker B: Right. And I don't know if anyone sees me. I'm not in a dungeon. I'm literally in the hotel room attending the BrightonSEO event. So this is my hotel room. The light looks weird, and it's dark, so that's why the lights look a bit weird.
[00:00:53] Speaker A: I know somebody unplugged my lamps in the back, so it's dark behind me. As I think, when they clean my house, they unplug, and they forget to plug it back in. So now I have no lights behind me, and I can't reach behind there. So when Nick comes home, he'll have to fix it for me.
[00:01:09] Speaker B: They make it a little bit romantic for you, you know.
[00:01:12] Speaker A: Oh, there you go. Real romantic. Working on websites and stuff. So romantic.
[00:01:16] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:01:19] Speaker A: Oh, well, I was thinking a lot about, like, it's been over a year since I've been laid off, and I admit I haven't applied to any jobs, but I've looked at jobs and wondered what might be good for me. And I tell you, everybody thought the door was just gonna, like, when I got laid off, like people were just gonna be lined up to hire me, and that never happened. And sometimes I wonder if it's because I'm not a developer and people know that I don't have those skills, or if I'm just too old because I'm in my late 50s now. If nobody wants to hire somebody who's in their late 50s. And so we did a little bit of research.
I know you always have more information because you digest those articles better than I do. But about how being over five can make it difficult to find a job in tech.
And, you know, I'm. I'll be 58 next week, the week after, on the 15th, next week. In eight days, I will be 58 years old. And I wonder sometimes if that's part of it, whether my age makes it difficult to find a job too. But I don't. I don't always think of the people in tech and WordPress as being ageist, but I guess there's a possibility that it is. So are your thoughts.
[00:02:27] Speaker B: I think we always talk about how to get more women to come in. We invest in education, university programs, internships, diversity, hiring, and encouraging young women to enter the industry.
But I think we are always asking the wrong question. Like, instead of asking how do we get women into tech, what's happened to them after they've been here for 10, 15, or 20 years? Because bringing women through the door means very little if we don't create an environment where they can stay, grow, and lead.
I agree with you. It's like it is for younger women to enter the tech, but it is how to maintain your career, how to keep it growing. It's fine if you don't want to grow in your career, if you find, if you just want to stay in the same position. But women who want to grow, who want to take a more leadership role. It's not easy. And I think also like that's why when someone succeeds, and they write a book about it, everyone. Oh, because it's rarely happening. And I agree with you, a lot of companies now in our industry are like it if you're creating websites or plugins or whatever in the IT world. A lot of companies are releasing people now. So it's more and more difficult for women to get a job. Especially if you're after the above. Sorry, 35 years old.
[00:03:53] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah, I think it's true too.
Like I said I was a little gun-shy to actually start putting out resumes because I just, I don't know, I just feel weird about it, especially not knowing, like, what do I want to do next? But I know what I do really well, and I would love a part-time job, you know, where I do like social media or content writing for a WordPress company, because I know that stuff so well. I was just going through some of my old blog posts that I wrote for GiveWP that are no longer on their website, and I was finding them in the Wayback Machine on archive.org so that I could have the text of them back, so that if I wanted to rewrite something that was similar, I wouldn't have to do all the research again. And it was not easy to find all of those articles, and I know I did more than I found, so there's got to be more in there. But, but doing something like that, I think, would be really useful, especially with the amount of experience that I have in WordPress and non-profits, and you know, in writing all that kind of stuff. I would love that kind of job, but I'm not sure where to even start. I know that people would be like, " Oh, that's you know, you're overqualified for that. Yeah, but that's what I want to do. You know that's what I want to do, part-time help somebody out with that way, and then have the other half of my day to do my passion projects with. You know things like being underrepresented in tech.
[00:05:14] Speaker B: No, I agree with you. Like I know you are looking for some, and I hope you find something. You're an awesome person. Anyone would love to have you in their company.
But. But it's still, it's. That's why we're talking about it today. It's so difficult to find a job because, also, you know, with this new AI, AI everywhere, like it's driving me crazy personally. Like also new.
New platforms, new ways of working, new talent. But a lot of time, innovation doesn't mean innovation is important.
100, but it doesn't mean the opposite of experience. You know what I mean? Like it, it's like it should be combined together because every time we look for something new, we need to acknowledge how they always look for the younger generation. Why experience can be more valuable than getting new technology or a new platform.
And I know you shared with me a couple of articles. One of them was an amazing one, which was like a career change, certified how to break into tick without starting over.
It's really interesting, one I've read quickly, but I think yeah, I don't know it's.
It's really eye-opening because it's so weird when we. We're fighting to bring more women into the industry. Now we're fighting over how to keep them.
[00:06:43] Speaker A: Right.
[00:06:44] Speaker B: It's insane.
[00:06:45] Speaker A: I think part of it. Right. So you know, past 35 used to be you've already had your children, you've raised them, they're in high school or college. But now, at 35, people are still starting families. Right. So.
So when you're in your 30s, and you're starting a family, that's when women have that guilt put on them to stay home with their children.
Especially if they aren't the primary breadwinner or if they have societal pressures to do that or family pressures to do that.
And, as a single mom, like I was a single mom, it was very difficult to work full-time and know that my child was cared for well.
So I worked really hard to make sure that she was always provided for. And nowhere where she was threatened or felt uncomfortable. So, as the only person in her parentage, all of the responsibility always fell on me to do that, you know, and so it was harder to work full-time and be a mom. And even after I was married, before I was divorced and we had three kids together, his two and my one, it was even more difficult to have a business. And at that time I was working for myself and, you know, do all the things that kids have to have done, find somebody to mow the lawn, find somebody to plow the driveway, because none of them were like, my ex-husband wasn't going to do those things. He wasn't going to plow the driveway. He had, you know, physical issues, but he also wasn't going to pick up the phone, and his sons weren't helping with anything. So I had all of that, the cooking, the cleaning, the laundry, all of that on me, which made it very difficult to continue to have my business. And I wonder sometimes if we're seeing a lack of growth in women over 35, if it's because they're just starting their families, if that's what they've chosen.
And of course, no, no problem. We don't care. We have no, you know, nothing to say about people who are choosing to stay childless. We think that's your choice, and we are very proud of you for making those choices. So we're not talking about that at all, but instead we're talking about how difficult it can be when that's the life you've chosen to then move ahead in a career that needs more than 40 hours a week, oftentimes in order for you to do more than the minimum to be able to prove yourself to get ahead. Because we know that, as women, we have to prove ourselves way more than men do in the industry, at least most of the time.
And it's difficult, for sure.
[00:09:18] Speaker B: Yeah, I agree with you and both of us, I know feminists, as you said, everyone, if you want to have kids, if you want to be a stay-at-home wife, you want to stay a girlfriend at home, you want to work, you don't want to have kids, we fully love you, respect you and support you. Yes. The thing is also the cost of bringing up a child, because most of the time, you know, because of the salary gap, the gender gap between men and women, and the man is making more money. So all of the time the women are forced to make the sacrifice to work this time and this less time, that's me in this career. And then when the kids, let's say maybe in their 40s, 50s, they finish, they go to university, and then they can be living by themselves. Then it starts. If she wants to go back to start her career in the 50s, it's. It's more difficult because, like, otherwise not up to date or even like doubting yourself, because most of us have doubts. I think you and I talked before. It was one of the research men. If there's 10 skills needed for the job, they will apply one of them. Women, they have nine out of 10, they will say, the job is not mine. I need to score every single one of the skills.
And on the articles you shared, there is. I found it very interesting, like, interesting. There's like the writing myth, like myth number one, myth number two. The myth number one, you must start from the bottom.
And they hear, they explain it like, you don't have to start from the bottom. A lot of careers start at 35. And they're explaining. There's a company called Triple Tins. 80% of their employees who graduated and did not have a STEM background reported an average salary increase of $16,300 compared to their previous roles.
So I agree, and I think sometimes it's nice to bring some people a lot of successful stories of SE level or whatever. They always come from different backgrounds. They didn't go to school, study at MIT, of course, if you study at MIT, but they didn't graduate with a master's degree. All of us, like, change our cares.
Crazy way. You were in the education system. I was in the NGO world. And suddenly we decided to shift careers. Why not?
[00:11:36] Speaker A: And here we met, and now we are lovely.
Not only tech, but specifically in WordPR right now. So, yeah, it's a. It's been an interesting career in WordPress, and things have changed so much over the last few years.
I'm really, really hoping that we get some more WordCamps here in Rochester and in Rochester in the United States. I was just approved to hold a WordCamp in the United States called WordCamp Northeast USA. And so it will be mostly New England, down through Pennsylvania, New York, Virginia, D.C., and parts of Ohio.
Anybody can come, of course, but we're hoping to. To rekindle some of that. And I would love to see some women, you know, I'd love to see equal numbers of women to men attending these events, you know, especially because. Sorry, my phone is ringing. Especially because they have, you know, different sets of skills and things that I think that we bring. Yeah.
[00:12:34] Speaker B: There is an initiative at Word Camp in Spain.
Yeah. I love how sometimes people also solve their problems because they reach out to Yoast, and they ask, " Hey, we need you to sponsor our daycare. There are women who need to be in the WordCamp itself, and parents.
So then they have a small daycare so the kids can be there while their parents can go to the WordCamp instead. State of like, you know, just in case. If your kids are at daycare, then you have. It's far away from school. We're going to take care of the kid. And a lot of people, when you talk with them in WordCamps, the couples, if they have kids, most of the time the mother stays at home and the father or the. The partner goes to. Go to.
To attend the WordCamp.
[00:13:20] Speaker A: Yep, exactly. So, yeah, we've got a lot of work ahead of us still. As a woman in tech and as an underrepresented person in tech, I do feel like things are better than they were, at least when I was starting out in my education and back in college a million years ago. But it feels better for women today than it did even when I started back with WordPress back in 2010. And I feel like things are a little bit better, but that's not to say they're perfect, and that's not to say they are equal to what other communities experience.
But we are making progress so slowly, but shortly is what I'm trying to say.
[00:14:03] Speaker B: Yeah, I don't know. And I also. How can I say? We talked earlier about it. It's, it's, it's. You always think like now we need more women here, now we. To keep them. It's, it's like it's never. I feel the, how can I say, the fight. The, the, the speaking I think I missed 10 years ago. 10 years ago. We're only talking about the salary gap.
[00:14:28] Speaker A: I know.
[00:14:29] Speaker B: Yeah. And now like more things coming up to talk about.
[00:14:34] Speaker A: Yeah, for sure.
But we.
Go ahead.
[00:14:38] Speaker B: No, no, you go for it. You go first.
[00:14:40] Speaker A: I was gonna say, but we, I think, are plugged in really well to a lot of communities and to women, especially. I think back to this last International Women's Day, and we did our eight-hour event. That was. It might have even been more than eight hours. I don't know. It started at some ungodly early morning here in the United States and wrapped up in my early afternoon, which is your late afternoon or early evening. But it was such a wonderful day talking to so many women, and I don't know. I have something I want to talk to you about after this call, that we might do something similar again. This next year. So we'll have to see what that looks like and tease it out, maybe a bit.
[00:15:17] Speaker B: Also, the article that you shared, there are a couple of steps. We're also going to add it in the description of the podcast, but there are a couple of good ones to step one, state the paragraph on how to change career at 35, step by step guide. Identify your strengths and career goals.
Turn your experience into trans transferable skills. Choose a target tech role.
Build the missing skills, build the proof through projects, and your portfolio.
I'm swallowing my words. As always.
Update your resume and job search story. Start networking and applying strategically.
Yes, I think the advice is good, but I hope that if someone is, I don't know, maybe we're gonna, I'm gonna do a small search to see if anyone did those steps and it's really worked because the article is really interesting and there are a lot of statistics in it, but I think it is really nice to check it out. We will add it to our podcast description.
[00:16:27] Speaker A: Yes. And remember, no matter who you are, no matter which population you are, whether a well-served or underserved population, your network is your best opportunity to look for new opportunities. Right. So people that you know, your network, I mean, that's how I've done almost everything in my career, is through the network that I've established and built. And you, even if you're really nervous about that kind of thing, you have to start somewhere. And so even if you reach out to local people and build from there, that's how I built my first business.
That's pretty much what I'm starting to do for my next business, which I'll be seeing soon.
But yeah, I'm kind of excited about the way things are going. And even though I'm in my late 50s and well over 35, I still think I will be fine until, you know, I decide someday that it's time to finally retire and live off some savings instead of doing what I'm doing now.
[00:17:20] Speaker B: So yeah, by the way, the 50s are the new 30s. This is my new.
[00:17:26] Speaker A: I know, right? I like that.
I like that.
[00:17:31] Speaker B: Yeah, it's. Yeah. And by the way, you look great for 15.
Thank you.
[00:17:37] Speaker A: So a little aside is, you know, I've been on this weight loss journey, and right now I'm down 85 pounds. I was down 90, but I've gained some back just to be purely transparent. And I've got to, you know, hit the gym a little more again. But we actually did joy the YMCA joined the YMCA, and now at least twice a week, sometimes three, I'm water walking and spending time walking in the pool forward, backward, sidestep, all of that, moving my arms around, getting some exercise in the pool. And then it's lovely because this, this Y has a really nice big hot tub I can go sit in and feel better afterward before I have to go home.
So I am making big strides to be able to live well beyond my, you know, my retirement age, whatever that might be.
[00:18:23] Speaker B: It is. I'm really proud of you. It's baby steps, I think, taking care of yourself.
You're beautiful just the way you are, and I think you're doing it to become healthier. Yeah. And I'm really proud of your achievement. And hopefully you go more and more and, and you reach the level of health that you want it to be, that you're super healthy and nothing can stop you in the world.
[00:18:46] Speaker A: So thank you. Thank you. That's. That's what I'm aiming for.
[00:18:50] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:18:51] Speaker A: Well, I don't know what we're going to talk about next time we meet up, but we'll find something. If you are still listening to our podcast and you have ideas, we'd love to hear them. Hit us up on any of our socials, send us an email through the website, you know, stop us in the hallway, whatever. We don't care. We would love to hear what your ideas are for us to discuss, and we look forward to bringing them back to you again real soon.
[00:19:12] Speaker B: Okay, see you. Bye.
[00:19:13] Speaker A: Bye.
If you're interested in using our database, joining us as a guest for an episode or just want to say Hi, go to underrepresentedintech.com See you next week.
